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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jesus Created or Creator??? | Rev 3:14 | Truthfinder | 96115 | ||
Hi Makarios, So, I see you truly believe what you believe? Good. That really is admirable. You mention that nothing will shake the faith that you have in your Lord or in His Holy Word. I sincerely hope that you don't think I would do that. What I show you, you will find does not contradict any other verse! Since I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, my beliefs are NOT contradicted by any single verse. Thus one's faith in God's Word should be strengthened by what I show. It is faultless. Regardless, my posts are not prepared and presented in an attempt to change anyone. Many try and say that my beliefs have no Scriptural grounds. I merely show why I believe as I do from the Scriptures and scholarly research. So, select a verse, but please tell me what your understanding of that verse is and why it supports your argument. I believe our topic was whether or not Jesus was "created" or "is the one creating". Why don't we complete this first since it too is a part of the study of the validity of the trinity doctrine. Revelation 3:14 is the topic verse. The issue is the translation of the Greek word ‘arkhe’. I will now present some facts. 1). The authoritative Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by William Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich says the meaning of ‘arche’ in Revelation 3:14 is ‘first cause.” 2). Bauer’s lexicon (BAGD) lists on page 112 ‘arche’ under definition number 2. The first cause. 3). Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon lists “beginning” as its first meaning of ar·khe´. (Oxford, 1968, p. 252) Therefore we conclude that there are at least two possibilities, the one by the first two authorities (definition number 2,) and the one by the third authority and also chosen by the NASB, RS, KJ, Dy, CC, NWT and numerous other Bible translations, “beginning”. This selection would mean that Jesus was created. What I find interesting is that Bauer’s lexicon provides no biblical passages as parallels to that meaning it suggests. Also, BAGD goes on to say regarding the use of arkhe in Rev. 3:14 “the meaning beginning equals first created is linguistically possible.” Possible? Well, notice the use of similar language in the NT. A check of all the occurrences in the NT of arkhe followed by a genitive expression (as in Rev. 3:14) shows that it always denotes a beginning or first part of something. Examples: Mt 24:8; Mr 13:8,19; John 2:11; Php 4:15; Heb 5:12; 6:1; 7:3; 2 Peter 3:4. Even when used without a genitive expression arkhe means ‘beginning’ some 32 times. Mt 19:4,8; 24:21; Mr 1:1 etc. Of the remaining 13 occurrences of arkhe in NT, 2 are used for the ‘four corners” (“extremities” NWT) of the earth. The final 11 are used to denote ‘governments” or “rulers,” and with such a meaning are always used with other expressions denoting “power” (Gr dynamis) or “authority” (Gr. Exousia). Thus, the way I see it, the use of arkhe in general, and when used with a genitive expression specifically, favors the meaning “beginning” in Revelation 3:14. The logical conclusion is that the one being quoted at Revelation 3:14 is a creation, the first of God’s creations, that he had a beginning. Compare Proverbs 8:22, where, as many Bible commentators agree, the Son is referred to as wisdom personified. And according to RS, NE, and JB, the one there speaking is said to be “created.” Truthfinder |
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2 | Jesus Created or Creator??? | Rev 3:14 | Radioman2 | 96120 | ||
IS JESUS WISDOM? 'JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES AND PROVERBS 8:22 'According to Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus is wisdom in Proverbs 8:22. Is Proverbs 8:22 speaking about Jesus? Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is being spoken of in Proverbs 8:22 and was created by God before all other things were created. What is going to be shown here is what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, and teach others concerning Proverbs 8:22, and look at the context of Proverbs 8:22 to see what exactly this passage is saying. 'In the Jehovah's Witnesses brochure called "Should You Believe In The Trinity page 14" they say the following: "Notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative "Wisdom" in the Bible book of Proverbs: "Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world." (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB) While the term "Wisdom" is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence." (Should You Believe In The Trinity page 14) Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is being spoken of in Proverbs 8:22 and that it teaches Wisdom (Jesus) was created. One point that needs to made right at the start. There is no reference to Jesus in Proverbs 8:22 at all. This passage is speaking of Wisdom, and for those who teach this is Jesus the evidence is not there. Another point is that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was God's first creation and therefore believe this to be speaking of Jesus and like to use different Bible Versions that would indicate that this Wisdom was created. There are Bible Versions that have Proverbs 8:22 with the words 'created, producted or made', however there are many Bible Versions that do not. 'BIBLE VERSIONS OF PROVERBS 8:22 THAT SUPPORT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES '"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago." (New World Translation/ Official Jehovah's Witnesses Bible) '"The Lord created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago." (Todays English Bible) '"The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past." (The Bible In Basic English) 'BIBLE VERSIONS OF PROVERBS 8:22 THAT DO NOT SUPPORT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES '"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old." (New American Standard Bible) '"Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old." (American Standard Version) '"Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." (Darby Bible) '"Jehovah possessed me--the beginning of His way, Before His works since then." (Youngs Literal Translation) '"The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works." (Gods Word Bible) '"Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, Before his deeds of old." (World English Bible) '"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old." (Third Millennium Bible) 'Showing the comparison of different Bible Versions shows this is not an easy solution to Proverbs 8:22 and with it reading 'possessed' or 'create, made, produced'. What is the Hebrew word and what does it mean? The Hebrew word here is 'QANAH' and it means: "to own, to attain, buy-er, create, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, provoke to jealously." The Hebrew word 'qanah' has many different definitions and can be used differently depending on the context. The question is how should 'qanah' be used in Proverbs 8:22? In order to rightly interpret the Scriptures the context is the key to understanding what the word means or implies. If someone said they love cats would you think they had a personal relationship with them as human beings do with other human beings? The word love can be used in many different ways and it is understood by the context of how it is used. The standard for rightly interpreting the Scriptures is reading carefully and looking at what is being said, who is sayiing it, and examining it in light of what the Scriptures teach.' ____________________ To read more, including 'EXAMINING PROVERBS 8 IN CONTEXT', go to: (http://www.apologeticsforchristians.homestead.com/JehovahsWitnessesProverbs8.html) |
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3 | Jesus Created or Creator??? | Rev 3:14 | Truthfinder | 96123 | ||
Hi Radioman2, This discussion of Proverbs 8:22 goes back to c.296-373 CE and is much more involved than what the apologetics have here. I have studied it in depth as my translations of the Hebrew texts will show. Sometime in the future though, I will present the arguments on both sides (more than these here presented; pro and con). It is a study in itself, I assure you, and an interesting one at that. But thank you for your contribution. Truthfinder |
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4 | Jesus Created or Creator??? | Rev 3:14 | Radioman2 | 96127 | ||
Truthfinder: You're welcome. And thank you for your reply. Take care. Radioman2 |
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