Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | Aixen7z4 | 141640 | ||
I think that 9 verse 9 is talking about our spirit, the inward man, as in 2 Corinthians 4:16. With that in mind, I would also have to choose the NASB version for verse 10. But these are deep things of God, and I think we would do well to keep both versions in mind. It is a fellowship between God and us, between his Spirit and our spirit, that is in view here, and it is perhaps that dynamic relationship we should be thinking of and in no way seeking to think of ourselves as separated from him. I can only imagine the dilemma the translators had in choosing the words to place here. I find a need to change even my favorite translation slightly so that it makes sense to me. We are not controlled by your sinful nature. We are controlled by the Spirit. And this can only happen because the Spirit of God is living in us. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not his people at all.) Since Christ lives within us, we have this situation: although our body is slowly wearing out because of sin, our spirit is vibrant and alive because we have been made right with God. |
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2 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | Ray | 141667 | ||
Hi Aixen7z4, I have been changing my favorite translations slightly so that it makes sense to me also; in fact for many years now. In that sense, I think we all have to work out our own salvation and go with what we believe. However, I do believe that there is a "perfect" understanding that we need to go back to and rediscover; or that will be revealed later in the will of God. 1) We can not know the thoughts of the Spirit of God or expressed in another way, the thoughts of God's Spirit; but that is one reason why I think that there is the spirit [sic] that is given to us by God the Holy Spirit. I believe that we should be filled with the spirit, and with His word(s). 2) I do not believe that the word "control" is the correct one in thinking of the (h)Holy (s)Spirit. We are "compelled" or "constrained" but there is no controlling by the Holy Spirit. 3) It appears that we believe the same in interpretting a lower case "spirit" for the first spirit in Romans 8:9 and for the "spirit" in verse 10. Here are three comparison verses that I gain from our talking together about these things. 1) Rom 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the *spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God/ dwells in you...." 2 Cor 5:4, "...in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the *spirit as a pledge." When the Spirit of God/ indwells us, then we should KNOW that we are saved whether we are at home in the body, walking by faith with Him, or whether at home with the Lord/. 2) Rom 8:10, "And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness." 2 Cor 5:11, "...but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences." We are one spirit together, one spiritual body as believers who know the Lord. And thus we persuade men because the love of Christ compels us. 3) Romans 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ /Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His (Spirit) who indwells you." 2 Cor 5:17, "For the love of Christ controls [NKJ, compels] us, having concluded this, that one [NKJ, One] died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him/ who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore if any man is in (Christ) he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." When His (Spirit) indwells us then we are new creatures in (Christ), and we are children of (God). Romans 8:16. The parentheses and slashes are mine for comparisons. The star is because the starred word differs from the NASB copy. From the heart, Ray |
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3 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | JCrichton | 145151 | ||
Hi, Ray! I followed most of the arguments... I fully agree with you on the Holy Spirit; as He is God, the Holy Spirit does not seek to control us... rather, He desires our obedience (belief) and submission (yielding our wills to His)... "However, I do believe that there is a "perfect" understanding that we need to go back to and rediscover; or that will be revealed later in the will of God." If the Holy Spirit would be controlling us... would such statements as the one above not be unnecessary?... yet, since we are granted free will, we may choose to serve God or to reject Him (choosing death rather than life); that perfect understanding which you speak of is found in 1 Corinthians 2:16... sadly, our egoes do not allow us to surrender our will to God fully, otherwise we would live that perfect union which Christ called us to live ("be one" "love one another")... that special relationship between us and God through the Holy Spirit is seen in 1 Corinthians 2:6-16... it is by surrendering to the Holy Spirit that we can fully achieve that unity with Christ, with all Believers and, ultimately, with the Father! One more point, if God controlled us, how would we be able to choose death rather than life?, ...how would we sin, embracing the creatures while rejecting the Creator?, ...how would we be able to grieve the Holy Spirit, Ephisians 4:30, rather than obey and revere Him? ...Capitalization: I agree with you, our spirit, that essence of the Holy Spirit, indwelling in us, should be in lower case "s"--Romans 8:9; however, in 2 Cor 5:4, God did not give us the pledge of His spirit but rather of His Spirit--that is the seal which we have receive, the Holy Spirit which Jesus sent to the world from the Father. ...As far as translations, I rather enjoy my Bible's version of Roman 8:10: But when Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin but the spirit is alive because you have been justified; (The New Jerusalem Bible) ...it is a simple variation but it more clearly conveys that we have life because of Jesus, as we are justified by Him! God Bless! Angel |
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4 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | Ray | 145200 | ||
Hi Angel, The word "controls" in the NASB for 2 Corinthians 5:14 is not a good choice. Looking at the Greek tonight, I think that the idea of the verse is that "the love of Christ holds us together" as believers in the One who died for us and for whom we now live. The idea of other passages like Romans 8 are that we are "led" by the Spirit of God. We have to be in control of our own thoughts. Romans 8:6 says that "the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace." And in comparison, verse 13 says that "if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." 1) Another comparison I make in the Romans passage are between verses 9 and 15. You have said that you agree with a lower case spirit for verse 9. How about verse 15? Romans 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the *spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God/ dwells in you..." Romans 8:15, "For you have not received a spirit of slavery, leading to fear again, but you have received a *spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba, Father!/" 2 Corinthians 5:4, "...who gave to us the *spirit as a pledge." 2) I see 2 Cor 5:4 as a match with the other two verses. But let me tell you why I choose the lower case "spirit". I do not see the Person, the Spirit [sic] as a pledge, a down payment, a promise, or as a sealant. He is equal with the other Persons. He is another Helper. Again, I distinguish between the gift and the Giver. The word "gave" in 2 Cor 1:22 signals to my mind that this is the gift of spirit as a pledge or down payment. It is for this reason that I go with a version like Green's Literal Translation which has the Giver translated in the verse. 2 Corinthians 1:21, "But He confirming us and anointing us with you in Christ (is) God, 22 even He having sealed us, and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." Green has a capitalized Spirit (I would say spirit) but what I agree with is the "He" that he has included in his translation. So here I would see the Giver, He having sealed us; and the gift, the down payment or earnest of the spirit in our hearts. 3) 2 Cor 1:22, "**He also sealed us and gave us the *spirit in our hearts as a pledge." John 3:34, "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for **He gives the *spirit without measure." That's how I see it. From the heart, Ray |
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5 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | kalos | 145201 | ||
Ray: You write: 'The word "controls" in the NASB for 2 Corinthians 5:14 is not a good choice.' How did you come to that conclusion? What are your academic credentials that would qualify you to assert that? You go on to say: 'Looking at the Greek tonight, I think that the idea of the verse is that "the love of Christ holds us together" as believers in the One who died for us and for whom we now live.' But in fact, "the love of Christ holds us together" has nowhere near the same meaning as "the love of Christ controls and urges and impels us" (Amplified and other versions). "Holds together" is nothing like "controls and urges and impels". 2 Corinthians 5:14 AMPLIFIED For the love of Christ controls and urges and impels us, because we are of the opinion and conviction that [if] One died for all, then all died; The NET Bible For the love of Christ controls us, since we have concluded this, that Christ died for all; therefore all have died. The Holy Bible, New International Version® For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. New King James Version For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; The American Standard Version For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; The New American Standard Bible For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; Holy Bible, The New Living Translation Whatever we do, it is because Christ's love controls us. Since we believe that Christ died for everyone, we also believe that we have all died to the old life we used to live. Good News Translation - Second Edition We are ruled by the love of Christ, now that we recognize that one man died for everyone, which means that they all share in his death. Holman Christian Standard Bible® For Christ's love compels us, since we have reached this conclusion: if One died for all, then all died. New Revised Standard Version For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. Holy Bible, English Standard Version For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; Contemporary English Version We are ruled by Christ's love for us. We are certain that if one person died for everyone else, then all of us have died. Grace to you, Kalos |
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6 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | Ray | 145215 | ||
Hi Kalos, My academic credentials are that I gained a college degree. I gained that degree because I was able to read books. Hopefully, you do not require every person that expresses an opinion to be a Greek scholar. Here is what I read and is the basis for my opinion about "contrains". Strong's #315, anagkazo; from 318; to necessitate, compel:--compel(3), compelled(2), force(1), forced(1), made(2). See Acts 26:11. Strong's #4912, sunecho; from 4862 and 2192; to hold together, to hold fast..." 2 Corinthians 5:14, "For the love of Christ "sunechei" us..." I hope this is helpful for you. From the heart, Ray |
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7 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | kalos | 145217 | ||
In the KJV and NASB the Greek word "sunecho" (Strong's #4912) is translated as follows: KJV (12) - be in a strait, 1; be taken with, 3; constrain, 1; hold, 1; keep in, 1; lie sick of, 1; press, 1; stop, 1; straiten, 1; throng, 1; NAS (12) - afflicted, 1; controls, 1; covered, 1; crowding, 1; devoting...completely, 1; distressed, 1; gripped, 1; hard-pressed, 1; hem, 1; holding...in custody, 1; suffering, 2; I am no Greek scholar. But I have formally studied (3 years) a foreign language and what I do know is that there is more to translating a document than merely translating a list of words in the source language (Greek) into a list of equivalent words in the target language (English). When any individual word is translated, the context must be taken into consideration. Possession of Strong's concordance does not qualify us for the work of translating the Bible. It takes much, much more than that. |
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8 | How do we know that we are truly saved? | 1 John 3:24 | Ray | 145232 | ||
Hi Kalos, Word study: #4912. sunecho, soon-ekh-o; from 4862 and 2192. to hold together..." #4862, sun, soon; a prim prep. denoting union; with or together... #2192, echo, ekh-o; a prim. verb; to hold..." The word appears to mean "to hold together". Let's look at the context of 2 Corinthians 5:14. 2 Cor 1:24 says that they are workers together; "but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm." 2 Cor 3:8, they are involved in the ministry of the Spirit. 2 Cor 4:5, they do not preach themselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and they are bond-servants together for Jesus' sake. 2 Cor 4:13, having the same spirit of faith. 2 Cor 4:14, looking to be presented together to Jesus. See also Colossians 1:28, "that we may present every man complete in Christ." 2 Cor 5:7, "for we walk by faith, not by sight--". 2 Cor 5:14, "For the love of Christ [holds us together] having concluded this, that [if One, NKJ] one died for all, therefore all died;" 2 Cor 5:17 talks about reconciliation, and that every man that is in Christ is a new creature. Verse 20, that we are ambassadors [together] for Christ and reconciled to God. 2 Cor 6:1, we are working together with Him. 2 Cor 6:14, we are not to be bound together with unbelievers. 2 Cor 7:2, "make room for us in your hearts." The message appears to be one of reconciliation and togetherness. Where do you see the context of God's "control" for 2 Cor 5:14? From the heart, Ray |
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