Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | mitelt | 111578 | ||
Believe it or not, I didn’t ask the question about “New Wine” to justify alcoholism. Your statement about “new wine” containing little or no alcohol appeared to contradict the reference to “new wine” in Acts 2:13, which is clearly referring to an intoxicating beverage, not grape juice. Based on that, I could not reach the same conclusion that you did regarding the wine Jesus created as being alcohol free. If the Greek words used for “wine” in these verses are different, then it is possible that they refer to two different types of beverage. Possible, but not conclusive. Thru some research on the internet, I have found some “commentaries” that both support and refute the idea that the wine Jesus created and/or drank was alcohol free. The pro view runs along the same lines as some of your statements. The con view states the lack of refrigeration, sanitation, pasteurization along with the natural occurrence of yeast and sugars in grapes as facts that make it unlikely that alcohol free wine could exist in biblical times. Grape juice sealed in wineskins or barrels will ferment and become wine. Grape juice not sealed, not refrigerated, and not pasteurized becomes vinegar. Then there is the issue of whether or not biblical wine was mixed with water. More pros and cons. I will continue researching these issues until I satisfy myself and can justify my conclusion. Right now, I would have to say that I lean towards the wine being alcoholic. I have to say that I am not particularly fond of your reference to the "excrement of sugar eating bacteria”. Can I assume that you do not eat any bread products, like most store bought breads, or bagels, or pizza dough or drink naturally carbonated soft drinks (soda pop)? While the yeast used for baking may be a different kind of yeast than that used for brewing or winemaking (there are about 160 different species), the principle is the same. That same bacteria excrement is what makes bread dough rise and adds carbon dioxide to some soft drinks. And then there is yogurt, which I don’t think uses yeast, but does usually contain active living organisms. These cultures act as friendly bacteria that "pre-digest" the lactose. Yogurt can be a good source of calcium for some people who suffer from lactose intolerance. If you abstain from eating or drinking anything made from or containing yeast, then I say go ahead, use the "sugar eating bacteria" example. But if you consume any of these products then you may be ingesting similar "excrement". EdB, you are right that drunkenness, alcoholism, wife-beating, drunken-driving, drug abuse, etc. are not defensible actions or lifestyles. I don’t think anybody here would attempt to defend that. Your last paragraph leads me to believe that this subject is quite personal to you. I can understand that. But just as all husbands are not wife-beaters and all wife-beaters are not drunks, not everyone who drinks is a drunk or an alcoholic. There are people who enjoy wine or beer for the flavor and not the buzz, who drink infrequently and who behave responsibly when they do have a drink. Does it glorify God? Probably not. But I can say the same about television, the movies, theater, most books and magazines, the newspaper, the internet, most peoples’ hobbies and quite possibly their jobs. Please understand, I really was just trying to understand your comments regarding “New Wine”. I plan to continue researching the issues regarding wine, the Bible, Jesus and how they relate to one another and the proper interpretation of scripture. I think I will refrain from commenting about this subject on this forum as these discussions always appear to get emotional rather than scriptural. I am afraid I have followed that same trend. Peace to all. |
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2 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | EdB | 111588 | ||
mitelt Let me add. Grape juice will go bad or turn vinegar before it turns to wine unless sugar is added and very sterile conditions are met. Alcohol is made as the bacteria ingests the natural sugar in the juice. However without the addition of sugar the bacteria only produces a very minimal amount of alcohol about 1 percent not enough to kill the bad yeast and the bacteria that will spoil the wine. Once all the sugar is gone the wine will quickly (measured in hours) become vinegar. In another thread I have been challenged on this point and they went to a local winery. There they learned basically what I'm saying is right. If the skins are used an alcoholic content a little higher can be reached by the resulting product has a very bad smell. Read will choke a goat. The old myth that they made wine to preserve the juice simply would not work given their sanitary conditions. In various books on the subject experts in this area state they sun dried a juice into what we would call a fruit rollup that was later dissolved in water. Also they made a very think paste that also was mixed with water. The other idea that they had to drink wine instead of water, because of the pour quality of the water, is nonsense. Muslims live in the same region drink the same water and alcohol is forbidden in Islam. Also again the alcoholic content of natural fermented wine is so low it would not kill one germ or bacteria. As to your bread yeast being the same thing there is one major difference, yeast in bread produces Co2 a gas and then the whole thing is baked which drives the gases out. In but with alcohol it is the final product and it is not cooked. I’ll stick to bread thank you. EdB |
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3 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | Net | 111955 | ||
OK I have to respond to this as a student of winemaking. Wine is OK in moderation to drink while pregnant. I drink wine occassionally in moderation and I am breastfeeding. The argument that the women who might be pregnant at the feast couldn't drink wine is no good. They could drink a little. In addition, in bible days, people often drank wine diluted with water because the water was not microbiologically stable. The wine killed the "bad stuff" in the water and made it better to drink. Also, you do not have to add sugar to wine to make it. This is laughable. The grape berries have enough sugar for the yeast to make alcohol out of. The yeast that makes bread also produces alcohol. That's what yeast does. It ferments the sugars into CO2 and alcohol. Both are produced in bread and wine. I am shocked to see how there is a lack of understanding of how wine is actually made. It is illegal to add sugar in California, where I live. I am from Napa. I know more than the average person about making wine. I've worked in a winery before and I'm in school to be a winemaker, as I said before. The wine made in biblical times was not as drinkable as the wines produced today, therefore it was common to drink the wine diluted so it didn't taste so bad. The bible does not say to not drink water and drink only wine, it says to not just drink water and drink a little wine. To quote a famous saying, wine is one thing, drunkenness another. |
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4 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | EdB | 111956 | ||
I really don’t question your expertise but: Alcohol, pregnancy: The consumption of alcohol during pregnancy carries the danger of damaging the fetus. MedicineNet.com Fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) is a condition characterized by abnormal facial features, growth retardation, and central nervous system problems. It can occur if a woman drinks alcohol during pregnancy. Children with FAS may have physical disabilities and problems with learning, memory, attention, problem solving, and social/behavioral problems. When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her unborn baby. There is no known safe amount of alcohol to drink while pregnant and there also does not appear to be a safe time to drink during pregnancy either. Therefore, it is recommended that women abstain from drinking alcohol at any time during pregnancy. Women who are sexually active and do not use effective birth control should also refrain from drinking because they could become pregnant and not know for several weeks or more. National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities. As to adding sugar your did you ever hear of “yeast nutrients” that is added with every batch of wine made in the Napa Valley? It is purified glucose (sugar) EdB |
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5 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | Net | 111959 | ||
I think that alcohol in minimal amounts during pregnancy is fine. That's just my opinion. People have been drinking around the world for centuries. I have known people who drank alcohol during pregnancy in moderation and their babies are all just fine. I had a few drinks when I was pregnant as well and my son is highly intelligent. I just don't think that it's a valid argument to say that Jesus wouldn't have made alcoholic wine because there were pregnant women present and God knows that alcohol is bad for babies. Yeast nutrients consist of DAP, or diammonium phosphate. The yeast needs nitrogen and phosphate. This is usually added to hurry along a sluggish fermentation. Once again, it is illegal to add sugar to the fermentation in California. It is only legal to add sugar where the grapes won't ripen to full maturity(sugar level). This is in places like France and Germany. In the winery I worked in in Napa Valley, they only added sulfur and yeast to the fermentations. That is typical of the wineries there. The grapes in Napa are picked at a high sugar concentration usually so there is no need to add sugar anyway. The yeast can produce levels of 12-13percent alcohol by volume on a regular basis without adding sugar. Higher levels of alcohol are taxed at a higher rate. |
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6 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | EdB | 111961 | ||
I talked to my wine expert and I stand corrected NAPA valley does produce grapes with unusually high sugar content of 20 plus brix which under ‘perfect’ conditions can produce 10 plus percent alcohol. However this is not the norm and to do this the wineries still have to add to the juice substances that just weren't available in Bible times. I think even you will agree that 1-3 percent without the addition of sugar is the norm world wide and that at least 10 percent is needed to prevent spoilage. Also as you said wine made this way is bad smelling and even worst tasting. Also people can not live drinking wine in place of water. Alcohol is a natural dehydrator that actually pulls water out of the body. A person would literally die of thirst if they had nothing but wine to drink. Therefore they had to drink water, the quality of which is no better or worst than what is drank today in many places in the area. As for drinking alcohol during pregnancy I don't think you have the credentials to override the advice of medical community, which is NO alcohol during pregnancy. EdB |
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7 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | Net | 111994 | ||
Who said that people had to drink wine in place of water? That would most definitely be impossible. I just find it impossible to believe that Jesus made wine with no or little alcohol. I never said that I possess any credentials to override the medical community. I stated that those were my opinions. You certainly read a lot into my statement that I never said. | ||||||
8 | wine and acohol | 1 Tim 5:23 | EdB | 111998 | ||
I'm sorry. Let me then just say your opinions stand in direct opposition to the sound advice offered by the medical community. I’m also sorry I put words in your mouth about the water, but popular myth has the people of Biblical times drinking wine instead of water for hygienic reasons which is complete nonsense. Lastly while you may find it impossible to believe Jesus provide non alcoholic wine at the wedding. I find equally impossible to believe he provided over 60 gallons of booze then said drunks are in danger of hell’s fire. I humbly apologize for reading anything into your comments. EdB |
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