Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | DocTrinsograce | 157906 | ||
Dear David, You write, "Are you saying sins that dont even exist can be forgiven? Jesus died to forgive something that doesnt exist?" (sic) The atonement is an incredibly difficult thing to have been accomplished. It required the work of God Himself based on a divine plan that was formed before time was even created! After accomplishing all that, why it would be an issue for Christ to have died for all the sin of man from the first sin of Adam to the last sin of the last of the elect completely misses the mark! You go on to suggest that your eisegesis is correct because of potential abuse of the doctrine. Abuse of the truth never makes truth untrue. Sin is infinitely horrendous any way you slice it. To suggest that those who hold to the doctrine of the justification of faith are minimizing sin is purely an ad hominem argument. This is mischaracterizing the doctrines of grace, and asserting a form of auto-soterism that is unknown to scripture. In Him, Doc "God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance. (Matthew 6:12; 1 John 1:7, 9; John 10:28; Psalms 89:31-33; Psalms 32:5; Psalms 51; Matthew 26:75)" --LBCF, Chapter 12, paragraph 5 "We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved." --Charles Hadon Spurgeon "We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as past, present, and future, is all present to His mind." --Lorraine Boetner "To the extent that we forget that our status before God is due to what Christ has done for us, we will try to make out own relationship with God depend on winning His approval." --Ranald Macaulay |
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2 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | David24597 | 157911 | ||
What difinitive evidence do you have from scripture alone that states the saved can not fall again into a state of being "unsaved" (for lack of a better word). Where is the scriptural proof that plainly states that once saved you are always saved and can never fall from grace again? Please refrain from quotes from other humans or human supposition. I'm asking for scripture references only and not vague references that require redefinition to prove your theories. |
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3 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | Wild Olive Shoot | 157917 | ||
David24597, You ask: “What difinitive evidence do you have from scripture alone that states the saved can not fall again into a state of being "unsaved" (for lack of a better word).” John 10:27, 28 Romans 14:4 2Timothy 1:12 Jude 1:24 Below is from Lewis Sperry Chafer: God has not only revealed Himself as Creator and Lord of all, but it has pleased Him to give the most minute and exact assurance of His ability to do for His child that which He purposed in the ages past. Speaking of what He would have us know, it is said: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly (Eph 1:19, 20). "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any (created thing) pluck them out of my hand" (Jhn 10:27, 28). This is true of "my sheep." No power created is sufficient to pluck them out of His hand. Even the "free will" of the sheep cannot, and will not, bring him to the point of perishing. "Who are thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand" (Rom 14:4). "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him (guard my deposit) against that day" (2Ti 1:12). "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling (stumbling) and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jud 1:24). Such is the testimony of the Holy Spirit concerning the sufficient power of God for the believer's eternal keeping. – Lewis Sperry Chafer Not only is it revealed that God is disposed to keep the one whom He has saved, but the true child of God is also a gift of the Father to the Son (Jhn 10:29; 17:6, 9, 11) and has been committed to the keeping power of the Father by the prayer of the Son. "Holy Father keep." That prayer will be answered. Thus it may be concluded that should the saved one be lost, the eternal purpose of God will have been thwarted. Admitting this, it must be concluded that He Who can design a universe whose remotest star shall not deviate by a second from its appointments throughout the ages; Who can plan the universe from the highest arch-angel to the marvelous organism of the smallest insect; Whose purpose has never yet been known to fail—that such a God may be defeated by the mere creature His hands have made. If the saved one is finally lost, it must also be concluded that God is, to that degree, lacking in power. He Who has testified that not one of His sheep will ever perish, must yet retract His bold assertions and humbly submit to a power that is greater than His own. He Who created and holds the universe in His hands; Who calls things that are not as though they were; Who could speak the word and dismiss every atom of matter and life from existence forever must retire before the over-lordship of some creature of His hand. And, lastly, admitting the revelation concerning God's eternal purpose and His infinite power to accomplish that purpose, if it could still be proven that the saved one might be lost we would be shut up to the one and final conclusion that it could be so only because the All-powerful God did not sufficiently care to keep those whom His power had created as new-born children. But what do we find? The revelation is full of testimony concerning that very care. Who can measure the revealed devotion of His boundless love toward the objects of His saving grace? Who will dare claim that He will not answer the prayer of His Son? – Lewis Sperry Chafer Chafer, Lewis Sperry. "Chapter Eleven: The Eternal Security of the Believer, Part 2." Salvation. Blue Letter Bible. 10 May 2004. 31 May 2005. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/lewis_chafer/salvation/ WOS |
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4 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | David24597 | 157918 | ||
Hello Wild Olive First I requested you stick with only scripture. You added a quote from someone elses interpretations of the scriptures. Those verses you DID supply obviously would only apply to those that "have endured to the end" Matt. 10:22. There is nothing there in your references that shows it is not possible to again return to a sinful life and lose your salvation. Only if you have lost your free will you then have lost the power to choose. In which case you are not a creature of God (for He has created us with the power to choose) but have become a slave to another. |
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5 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | Wild Olive Shoot | 157954 | ||
Philippians 1:6 John 6:39 John 17:12 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 1 Peter 1:3-5 1 John 4:4 John 10:27-30 John 3:16 Titus 3:7 In case we don't know what eternal means, it means forever, never ending, once we have it, we have it always. WOS I didn't quote anybody. |
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6 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | David24597 | 157960 | ||
Wild Olive I am not denying that the saved have eternal life. Most of these texts also support that. What I am saying is the saved must contunue until the end to remain saved. Allow me to examine some of the texts you provided. Phil 1:6 is conditional "if" we remain sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. verse 10 So is that of 1 Peter 1:3-5 dependant upon our remaing faithful "to the end". verses 13 and 14 1 John 4:4 needs to be read with the entire chapter. Verse 12 adds the condition "if we love one another" and verse 17 shows a developement of that love over time. John 10:27-30 only applies to those that follow Jesus - verse 10. Obviuosly "follow" does not mean follow for a short time then turn away again later but to follow as long as they live. You should have added verses 20 and 21 to the text from John 3:16. It to is conditional upon our continual obedience. Funny you should add Titus 3:7 without including the very next verse there either. Consider 11 Chron. 1:13 and 1 Peter 1:13 Theres is abundant evidence in scriptures showing the saved must continue on in their fauth to remain saved. It would be a waste of time to take several hours searching through the Bible for passages most of you would discount anyway as you have those I have already supplied. I suggest each and every one of you to go back to the beginning, read the Bible through from Gen. to Rev. paying special close attention to every place this subject is mentioned. See for yourselves whether salvation is depentant on our remaining faithful throughout our lives. |
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7 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | mark d seyler | 157968 | ||
Hi David, I want you to know that I have spent a great many hours on this specific subject, looking at every passage that any number of people use to make the claim you are making. I am a person whose only interest is in knowing the truth, whatever it may be. You say that to remain saved, you must continue in your faith. Can you actually show me a scripture that says that very thing? That you who are saved must continue faithful or you will no longer be saved? That the born-again can die-again? I agree that it is a waste of time to examine verses with someone who has no interest in honestly examining a issue. Perhaps the most useful course of action you could take at this time on this forum would be to go to the archives, and read some of the discussion that has already taken place, to find out who believes what, and what "proofs" have been offered. If you enter 141225 in the search box, this will take you to one of many in which this topic has been discussed. "Remaining faithful" is not a condition of salvation, it is a condition of salvation. If "remaining faithful" were a condition, then salvation would be by my continuing good works, and declares Jesus' statement from the cross "it is finished" a lie, that it is not finished, not until I finish it myself. I would be happy to email to you some of the Bible study I have done on this topic. I will leave you with this: “I am saved if I hold on to my faith til the end, if I keep myself from returning to sin. If I do not do these things, I may lose my salvation. The work of salvation is begun by God, but continued by me. The work of maintaining my salvation is mine, and so the glory upon reaching heaven is mine.” Is this what the Bible teaches? I don't think so. Love in Christ, Mark |
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8 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | David24597 | 157990 | ||
Hi Mark. You said “I am saved if I hold on to my faith til the end, if I keep myself from returning to sin. If I do not do these things, I may lose my salvation. The work of salvation is begun by God, but continued by me. The work of maintaining my salvation is mine, and so the glory upon reaching heaven is mine.” Is this what the Bible teaches? I don't think so. You are so close to what I am saying but still a bit short of the mark. Consider Isa. 1:18 and Phil. 2:12. We can of our ownselves do nothing. But, with the help of the Holy Spirt, yes the work of maintaining our salvation is our own, with God's help. The "glory upon reaching heaven" is a SHARED glory. |
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9 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | David24597 | 157991 | ||
again I wish there was an edit button to add this to the end of my last post: John 17:22, Rom. 8:18, 1 Cor. 15:41-43, 11 Cor. 4:17, Eph. 1:18, Col. 3:4, 1 Thess. 2:14, Heb. 2:10, 1 Peter 5:1-4 I added these cause I'm sure some will think I am trying to claim God's is not the only glory should be recieved. But our glory is that we give it to God. Rom. 15:17, 1 Cor. 1:29-31, 11 Cor. 10:17, Gal. 6:14, Rev, 21:24-26 |
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10 | Does sin prove one is not a believer? | 1 Cor 6:9 | mark d seyler | 158015 | ||
Hi David, Consider the following as an example: 1 Cor 8:10 "For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend." This is just one of many scriptures that people use to make the claim that you can lose salvation. They say that this is talking about a brother, and that they can perish - lose salvation. We can perish physically or spiritually. John 15 tells us that the branch that does not bear fruit the Father takes away (this is not the branch that is burned – those are cast out, then gathered to be burned. This branch the Father takes away.) If I embolden my weaker brother to sin against his conscience, and he does not return to a fruitful walk, the Father may take him home, and so his earthly life is over, he perishes. The word translated “perish” is apoleitai from apollumi, which is variously translated as lost (as the sheep Jesus searches for - Matt 10:16), lose (to lose a reward – Mark 9:41), perish (John 3:16), die (expedient that one man should die – John 18:14), destroy (cast down but not destroyed – II Cor 4:9). If this passage refers to spiritual death, then my poor witness and stumbling my brother has greater power than God’s power that keeps him (I Peter 1:3). Depending on how you translate apollumi, the weaker brother may become misguided, missing a reward, may die, may be destroyed. This verse does not require as its only meaning that the weaker brother has lost his salvation. Compare to I Peter 1:23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth (stays) for ever.” If I have stumbled a brother into sin, and he ‘die-again’, I will have corrupted the incorruptible, and caused to leave what the Bible says stays forever. I use this example to make this point. You cannot use verses that have a broader range of meaning to interpret those that have a narrow range of meaning. You must begin with those that have a very narrow range of meaning, and use them to understand the others. I hope this helps. Love in Christ, Mark |
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