Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Free will and predestination co-exist? | Rom 8:29 | mark d seyler | 178540 | ||
Hi ZtheBerean, Thank you for your gracious reply! You have raised some interesting points, and I would like to look at the Scriptures you have referenced. You wrote: "We need to receive grace in order to be obedient to the faith (Rom 1:5)" While I agree with you in priciple that it is by the grace of God that we are made able to be obedient to faith, I think you mean this in a slightly different way than I do. But what does this verse that you have referenced say: Rom 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, Rom 1:6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; This seems to me that Paul is saying that he is the one who has received grace and apostleship, for the purpose of bringing about the obedience of faith to the gentiles. So that the grace that was received was received by Paul, not the gentiles (though to be saved, and to be sanctified, I believe the gentiles do receive grace). Paul received this grace to render him able to minister to the gentiles, so this grace spoken of is not grace that was received by the gentiles to produce obedience in them. Do you agree with this? Concerning Romans 10:17, this is a plain statement, indeed, that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." But we know that not all that hear the reading of the Bible are saved, right? When you look at the entire chapter, what is Paul telling us? The Jews seek to establish their righteousness according to the Law. Christ put an end to the righteousness of the Law. The only righteousness that is available is that which comes through faith in Christ. Those who believe will be saved. But how can one believe unless they hear? How can they hear unless one is sent? (this is condensed, but check the chapter) They didn't all heed, even though they heard. But the most telling part of this chapter towards how we are saved is: Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. The word forms are very specific: "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" is subjunctive. "If you confess . . . believe. . ." sets up a condition upon which the later clause "you will be saved", which is future tense, is dependant. "If you do this, you will...", "if you do not do this, you won't..." is the idea. "Confess" and "believe" are active voice verbs - these are things you must do. So while this chapter tells us that the process of salvation includes learning about salvation, the conditional aspect of salvation is not a matter of hearing the Word, else we could simply stand on the street corner reading aloud, and everyone in earshot would be redeemed. But the conditional aspect of salvation is whether or not we confess and believe according to this passage. Let me know what you think of these things. I will address your other points in another post. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Free will and predestination co-exist? | Rom 8:29 | ZtheBerean | 178557 | ||
Hi Mark, Thank you for agreeing in principle that it is by grace that we are made obedient to the faith. Now although you say that you agree, you then go on to disagree with this statement “it is by grace that we can have the obedience to the faith”. Your reasoning is confusing, for having said that our obedience is by grace, you then suggest that Romans 1:1-6 are only applicable to Paul. But Paul is merely telling us about this same obedience that we as Paul have to have, if we are to be in Christ by the power of Christ in God. Your attempt to limit Paul’s presentation to himself only, is defeated by vs. 7, wherein Paul tells us that this message of grace through the power of Christ is subject to God our Father. And so Paul then adds that all that is of God in this grace is subject to the will of God (Rom. 1:10). Paul giving us an example of the fact that it is God who is moving him, and not Paul himself, is the whole point, which I hope that you don’t continue to miss, because you insist on just placing Paul here and not all who should be following Paul in Christ by the will of God. And so the gospel of Christ has to have the power of God working, if we are going to be able to believe (Rom. 1:16). I hope that you agree with me that believing is the obedience of the faith? Remember if you do agree that believing is the obedience of the faith, you have already stated that this obedience is NOT by our will-power, but rather it is by grace, which is God’s will-power. I hope that your gospel might include the power of God, which is according to His will being accomplished in Christ, so that you too could say that you are obediently living by faith through the power of God to work His will into our lives by grace. Another word for grace is GLORY (Rom. 1:23); The truth reveals the grace of God (Col. 1:6 cf. Rom. 1:25). Please don’t change this truth, lest you also change the glory, and God give you over to your own will be done. It was not our will that is to lead us, it is rather the goodness of God that is to lead us to repentance (Rom. 2:4). All of this is so that our faith could be acceptable to God in Christ. AGAIN: I hope that you agree with me that believing is the obedience of the faith? Blessings in His grace, Ztheberean |
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3 | Free will and predestination co-exist? | Rom 8:29 | mark d seyler | 178558 | ||
Hi ZtheBerean, What I actually said was: "I agree with you in priciple that it is by the grace of God that we are made able to be obedient to faith." Not that we are "made to be obedient to faith." I believe the term commonly used to describe my understanding is "prevenient grace", although I do not claim all of the associations you will find with this term if you google it. This is the essence of Romans 10:9: Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), Rom 10:7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; You can't reach up into heaven to pull Christ down to you. You can't reach into the grave - this isn't by your power. But God has brought salvation to you. It is as near to you as your heart is, and as your lips are. God has brought to you the message of faith, that if you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, you will be saved. God has brought this to you, now, just receive it as your own - confess - say the same thing as - agree with God, and believe - put your confidence in - the God Who raised Jesus from the dead will raise you - and you will be saved. My point was simply to say that the grace spoken of in Romans 1:5 which you referenced was a grace given to Paul specifically for a specific purpose. The Paul has received grace, and we have received grace, but the grace received in verse 5 was received by Paul, and it does not serve our discussion to take that out of context. Believing and Faith are the same thing (Greek Pisteuw), therefore, believing is not "obedience to the faith", it IS the faith. Also, "grace" is from "charis", and speaks of favor, or gift, while "glory" is from "doxa", which speaks of good report, or high opinion. I understand that we have a sharp disagreement over this concept. I do not wish to become involved in a protracted debate. The most important matter between us is that we both believe. Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Free will and predestination co-exist? | Rom 8:29 | lionheart | 178563 | ||
Mark, Tiz amazing what two little greek words like Pisteu and Pistis will do to clarify such as beleving and faith. It also explains clearly what actual believing and faith and believing entails. Well put bro. In Him, lionheart |
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5 | Free will and predestination co-exist? | Rom 8:29 | kalos | 178587 | ||
“Belief” in the NT—what does it mean? Lionheart, I agree with you. Following are two excellent quotes explaining the meaning of the Greek word pisteuo. ____________________ "Whosoever believeth in him" is equivalent to "whosoever trusts in or commits himself to him [Christ]." ____________________ From THE AMPLIFIED BIBLE: Background and History: Overview ‘adhere to, cleave to; trust; rely on 'Through amplification, the reader gains a better understanding of what the Hebrew and Greek listener instinctively understood (as a matter of course). Take, for example, the Greek word pisteuo, which the vast majority of versions render as "believe." That simple translation, however, hardly does justice to the many meanings contained in the Greek pisteuo: "to adhere to, to cleave to, to trust, to have faith in, to rely on, to depend on." Notice the subtle shades of meaning which are unlocked in John 11:25: '"Jesus said to her, I am [Myself] the Resurrection and the Life. Whoever believes in (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on) Me, although he may die, yet he shall live."' (www.gospelcom.net/lockman/amplified/) From the New Scofield Reference Bible, Oxford, 1967 'Belief in the N.T. denotes more than intellectual assent to a fact. The word (Gk. pistis, noun; pisteuo, verb) means *adherence to, committal to, faith in, reliance upon, trust in* a person or an object, and this involves not only the consent of the mind, but an act of the heart and will of the subject. "Whosoever believeth in him" is equivalent to "whosoever trusts in or commits himself to him [Christ]." Belief, then is synonymous with faith, which in the N.T. consists of believing and receiving what God has revealed.' Grace to you, John |
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