Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76090 | ||
Joe One of the many questions that still needs to be answered is: "Why does Jude 21 warn us to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if the possibility of separation from God's love is impossible?" Grace Peace and Love New Creature |
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2 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | John Reformed | 76129 | ||
I forgot to add: Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? If my own efforts are those which insure my salvation, then surely I should get the credit for retaining that which was entrusted to me. But if it is God in me (Phil 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure), I will then have nothing of which to boast. Those who hold to God's preservation of the elect (or "eternal security") are not constrained to rely on a few verses which must be taken out of context and twisted to fit our doctrine. If you wish, I could provide you more evidence than you may care to examine. My hope for you is that you will find the truth of this GOD glorifying doctrine. God Bless, John |
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3 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76154 | ||
John All of Scripture not a few selected verses indicate the very real possibility of an individual departing from the faith he once held. 1 Tim. 4:1 says "in the latter days some will depart from the faith" If I'm correct, you need to first be "in the faith" before you can depart from it. I cannot depart from a height I never previuosly attained. Also you added Gal 3:3 which says "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now BEING PERFECTED by the flesh?" Now there is a verse which asks if we are made perfect by the flesh? In contrast read what James says: "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith MADE PERFECT?" Now I think we both would agree that there is no contradiction between Paul and James. Least I don't find any. We should not take a few selected verses which appear to support our denominations theology, but accept all of Scripture inspite of what any denomination would lead us to believe Blessings New Creature |
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4 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | John Reformed | 76206 | ||
Dear New Creature, You opened your reply to my post by stating: "All of Scripture not a few selected verses indicate the very real possibility of an individual departing from the faith he once held." But you then failed to offer me even a whole verse as a proof text! 1 Tim. 4:1 says "in the latter days some will depart from the faith" Any text taken out of context is a pretext. It is my experience that many (if not most) flawed interpretations arise from neglecting this elementary, but essential rule. The whole verse reads:" But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,...". I suggest we deal with the whole verse and also those following verses which expand upon it. The "latter days" or "later days" I think, means at some time sooner or later, as opposed to " the last days" which Paul used in 2 Tim 3:1. I don't know if this has any significance to our question, but I merely mention it in passing. By " ...some will fall away from the faith..." I take it you mean: some have lost their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, thereby they have lost their salvation( If my assumption is incorrect, I apologize, I don't mean to put words in your mouth.) The reason that I cannot accept your interpretation is found in discovering what else is said about the opening clause in that follows it. Those who departed from the faith did so because, they paid attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. What kind of men were spreading these doctrines and by what means were they spread? 1 Tim 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,". What were these decietful and demonic doctrines? Paul gives the answer in 1 Tim 4:3: " men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth." How does Paul answer the false doctrines of these liars? 1 Tim 4:4,5 "For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer." Why does Paul instruct Timothy in what he has thusfar told him? 1 Tim 4:6 "In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following." What should Timothy do? 1 Tim 4:7-9 "But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance." Why should Timothy do these things? 1 Tim 4:10,11 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Prescribe and teach these things." You said: "If I'm correct, you need to first be "in the faith" before you can depart from it." I believe there is a distinction betwen being "in the faith" and "in Christ". It is possible, for instance, that a person be a member of the "faith" but not a possesor of faith. Jesus addressed this circumstance in Matt 7:22,23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' I tust that you are satisfied that I have not used "selected verses" to force my interpretation onto the passage. John |
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5 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76215 | ||
Those you mention in Matthew 7 are never said to have been at any point "in the faith" which makes it unlike 1 Tim. 4:1 where it is said they "shall depart from the faith" The term "the faith" does not signify a mere professed faith, but being singular with the article before it, Paul probably assumed the readers would know which faith he was speaking of. I believe when he said "the faith" (singular)he was talking about the one true faith which is in Christ Jesus. Elsewhere in Scripture Paul says: "there is one Lord, one faith" I think the same thing applys here. Paul in his wriitings was speaking of the one true faith in the one true Lord that saves. Not a mere profession of faith as some believe. Thats the way I see it. I could quote you many verses and portions of Scripture which speak of forfeiting ones faith as being real. Not imagined or hypothetical as many theologians would attempt to have us believe. But rather than post numerous verses which seem to only create added confusion in the discussions, I found it to be better to limit the number of verses in discussions with those who disagree. Blessings New Creature |
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6 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | John Reformed | 76219 | ||
Dear New Creature, I am not denying that the faith being spoken of is the true faith. What I attempted to explain is that one may appear to be and may even consider himself to be "in the faith", but, as the song says, "it ain't necesseraily so". Cor 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? John |
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7 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | New Creature | 76227 | ||
While all that is true, 1 Tim. 4:1 is not speaking of those who simply appear to be in the faith, but of those who actually are in the faith, and their departure or apostasy from that faith is real. The verse says: they shall, not might deppart from the one true faith. So this is not the verse to attempt to imply a mere profession of faith, there are other verses like the ones in Matthew 7 to do that. This is addressing possessors, not mere professors only. It is said of the them "they shall depart from the faith" If I said "John shall depart from the airport, you would clearly understand that in order for John to depart from the airport, it is first necessary that John be in the airport. In order to depart from the faith, the person needs to first be in the faith. And if some shall depart from the faith, then the possiblity of others departing from the faith remains a real possibility. Once saved, we are not puppets, or robots. Our freedom of choice has not been removed once we become saved. Only a Sovereign loving God, could still allow us to retain such freedom. Praise His Holy Name Hallelujah God Bless New Creature |
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8 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Reformer Joe | 76333 | ||
New Creature: You wrote: "So this is not the verse to attempt to imply a mere profession of faith, there are other verses like the ones in Matthew 7 to do that. This is addressing possessors, not mere professors only." The fact that other verses address false faith doesn't mean that this passage doesn't. That would be like saying that all the passages on justification by faith are not really talking about that because we have John 3:16. I think you raise a good question in addressing what Paul means here in 1 Timothy 4:1 when he refers to "the faith." Is he referring to one's personal faith in Jesus Christ or a corporate profession of faith? The word "faith" does not always mean "one's personal trust and belief." For example, we often refer to "the Muslim faith" or "the Christian faith." When we use such terms, we are not speaking of any disposition in the hearts of particular individuals. Rather, what we mean by that is a written or unwritten confession of what a particular religious group holds as truth. The Christian faith, in that sense, objectively remains the Christian faith regardless of anyone personally clinging to it or departing from it. Of course, the question remains whether that is the sense in which Paul uses "the faith" in 1 Timothy 4:1. Paul uses the term a lot in this epistle alone, not to mention throughout his inspired writings: "In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following." --1 Timothy 4:6 Here in the very same paragraph we see "the faith" mentioned. Obviously, however, we cannot be nourished on the words of our personal faith. Clearly, Paul is talking about the apostolic teachings that would make up the canon of Scripture, the "words of THE faith." We see that use of it in several places, where it would make at least as much, if not more, sense to define "the faith" as a corporate confession of faith rather than the personal belief in Jesus Christ through which we are justified : 1 Timothy 1:2,14; 3:9,13; 5:8; 6:10,21 2 Timothy 1:13; 3:8; 4:7 Titus 1:4,13; 3:15 etc. Now, I am not saying that every instance of the word "faith" refers to a corporate confession. That would be nonsense and do great damage to the gospel. However, apparently, as we do, Paul had different connotations of the word "faith," depending on whether he was referring to the commonly held doctrines of the confessing church or the personal belief through which we are individually declared righteous before a holy God. In almost every case, the "rejection" or "wandering away" is from "THE faith," not "YOUR faith." We live in an individualist society, and I think one of the consequences of that mindset is a frequent failure to recognize the intensely corporate nature of Christianity. While we are saved through our personal reliance upon the finished work of Christ, we also believe in "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Most 21st-century Christians are strangers to the concepts of creeds and confessions, but the early church made use of them extensively and Paul quotes some of them in his epistles. I also hold that this absence of confessional Christianity has eroded our sense of a church that stands together, saying, "This we believe." Certainly there are some among us who say it without truly believing it, but the confession of the faith stands even in the face of individuals wandering from it, giving evidence of not being truly regenerate. May God bless you this day! --Joe! |
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9 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Morant61 | 76345 | ||
Greetings Joe! As always, excellent comments my friend! May I comment on one of your points though? You wrote: "In almost every case, the "rejection" or "wandering away" is from "THE faith," not "YOUR faith."" One possible explanation of these fact could simply be that Paul is always writting to someone else, other than the ones who departed from the faith. So, he wouldn't use 'your faith' when talking to those who haven't departed! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Reformer Joe | 76348 | ||
Tim: You wrote: "May I comment on one of your points though?" I would feel neglected if you didn't! :) "One possible explanation of these fact could simply be that Paul is always writting to someone else, other than the ones who departed from the faith. So, he wouldn't use 'your faith' when talking to those who haven't departed!" True enough, but we could substitute whatever personal pronoun you like. Other than the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander ("their faith"), I do not recall any other instances of a personal pronoun being used with "faith" when referring to apostasy. And, as I have stated before, in their case it could very well mean their previous confession of faith being shipwrecked by their blasphemy. May God's blessing be upon you today! --Joe! |
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