Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | Mathew | 86344 | ||
Greetings Tim, The answer is that scripture says neither. But from what I can gather so far is that this chapter cant be proven either to be a parable or not a parable then, according to you. Because it sounds like you would need the story to spell it out for us. If I were to beleive that this was a true story, then the first thing I must do is take it litteraly. #1 I must beleive that Abrahams Bosom is a real place. #2 I must beleive in a Great Gulf fixed between heaven and hell. #3 I must belive that Neither Lazarus or the Rich Man spent very long in the grave, both recieved their reward immediatly after death. This would cause many false doctines to arise, such as pergatory or Christ teaching to people in hell. Also that a person would receive there verdict before a judgment. But all Christians know that there is only one day of jugment. Further I would have to find it unjust that a person who died 5000 years ago for murder has been burning 5000 years longer than someone who committed the same crime, and died yesterday. But the bible speaks of different dagrees of punishment. Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luk 12:48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. Here are some thoughts of what I think match up pretty good with different dagrees of punishment and eternal fire. #1 If the fire is eternal then there cant be different dagrees of punishment. And you cant go to Abrahams Bosom,Pergatory or even Heaven without a judgment first. #2 Isa 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; there shall not be a coal to warm them; nor fire, to sit before it. Now lets look at Malachi 4:1-3 Mal 4:1 For behold, the day is coming, burning like a fire pot; and all the proud, and every doer of wickedness, shall be stubble. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Jehovah of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them. Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name, the Son of Righteousness shall arise, and healing will be on His wings. And you shall go out and frisk like calves of the stall. Mal 4:3 And you shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day which I am preparing, says Jehovah of Hosts. Both Isaiah and Malachi say that the wicked shall be as stubble. But Malachi goes on to say that they shall be ashes under are feet in that day. Notice that it doesnt say "as" stubble. But rather "shall be" stubble. I also notice that there are made ashes in that same day. I don't know how long the fire will last but it will go out. Just as the unquenchable everlasting fire of Sodom and Gamorah has. Maybe if the bible used the word asbestos instead of stubble turning to ashes, then I would think that it might last longer. This is not a parable that Malachi is talking about, so we must first take it litteraly. Psa 37:18 Jehovah knows the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be forever. Psa 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time; and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall pass, and the enemies of Jehovah shall be like the beauty of pastures; they are consumed, "like smoke they perish." The wicked will perish like smoke. Also you ask: How also do you explain Mt. 25:46? "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." In order for this verse to line up with scripture, and the wicked turning to ashes and perishing like smoke. I understand the word punishment to mean one act of God, not a continual torture(punishing). The punishment is death. The eternal part of it is that ther will be no resurrection from it either. God is just and so are his punishments. I do beleive that they will be tortured, some maybe longer than others. Such as the servant who knew better. But all will become ashes sooner or later. Please read 2Peter 2:6,Psalm 112:10,Ezek.28:11-19 for more of what I beleive of what will happen to the wicked. Just reasons why I beleive in a just God MaTT. |
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2 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86514 | ||
MaTT, I couldn't have said it better myself. Tim, That reference in Samuel and your hold on it as evidence disturbs me. That was not Samuel who appeared but a demon. 2 Cor 11:14 says:"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." Consider the following: 1) She was a witch. God said NEVER go to a witch. They were supposed to be executed. Based on your belief then, that it was indeed Samuel, am I to believe then in seances and ouija boards to find out about my future? or talk to my dearly departed? I think not. Saul was playing in the devil's territory. There is NO WAY that there could have been anything true about that. 2) This spirit that came up who CLAIMED to be Samuel said that the witch had the to power to raise him. The Bible says that only God has that power. Jesus is the ressurection and the life. The devil has no power to give life OR call a saved person like Samuel up. What he does have to power to create are illusions to deceive. 3) The Spirit also told Saul that he would be with him tomorrow? How can that be? Is Saul to be in "Abraham's bosom" like Samuel according to your belief? I heard something on the radio about Jesus always chastising with some sort of hope mingled in with it. In revelation, he follows up to the seven churches by saying "to him that OVERCOMES..." Where was the hope in this chastisement? He just told him that he was going to die. God cares for the sinner but hates the sin. He would have told Saul to repent or something so that we would not have to die. I noticed you excluded Jude 1:7. How do you explain that? I don't hear about a city somewhere in the middle East that is still burning. God wants us to think. It is the only way that we will grow as Christians. Consider when God asked Adam and Eve "Where are you?". Do you think God did not know where they were? Or when he asked Job "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,..." I am saying all this to say that we are to think, pray and study on topics. Concerning the topic of death, the bible teaches that it is a sleep (unconciousness). Moses was not dead. He was raised from his death. I gave you Jude 1:9 to show you that Moses is NOT in the grave. We have to be careful not to base a belief on a single verse in the bible but to measure it up against the whole Bible. If the "Rich Man and Lazarus" is not a parable, then do you believe that the people in hades (where the rich man was) can talk to the saved? Let us seek the truth together and FIND the truth in the bible. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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3 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | Morant61 | 86517 | ||
Greetings Phil! Thanks for your response! Allow me to touch upon some of your points! 1) The Spirit of Samuel: Your take on the 1 Sam. 28 passage is that the spirit described is a demon. However, just as Luke 16:19ff is never called a parable my friend, neither is the spirit in 1 Sam. 28 ever called a demon. Consider 1 Sam. 28:15a - "Samuel said to Saul, ...". Throughout the passage, the spirit is identified as Samuel, not a demon pretending to be Samuel. 2) Moses not dead? Exactly where does Jude 9 say that Moses was not dead? However, Deut. 34:5-6 explicitly says that he died and was buried: "And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is." Jude 9 speaks of a dispute over Moses' body, but it never says that he was not dead, or that he had been raised. Again my friend, this position is pure speculation and goes beyond what the text actually says. 3) Can they talk to those in Hades? First of all, they were all in Hades, not just the rich man. Secondly, the passage in Luke 16 says that the rich man called out to Abraham. So, we know that at the very least he could communicate with Abraham. Beyond that, the text is silent. 4) Jude 7: Again my friend, this passage does not teach what you claim. No where does Jude 7 say that Sodom and Gomorrah will burn eternally. It says that they (all three examples mentioned in vv. 5-7) serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Conclusion: So, I am to reject what the Bible actually says because some believe that Luke 16:19ff is a parable, even though Scripture never says that it is a parable. I am to reject what the Bible says about Samuel in 1 Sam. 28 because some believe that the spirit was a demon and not actually Samuel, even though the Bible never says this. I am to reject what the Bible says about Moses because some believe that he was not really dead, even though Deut. 34:5-6 says that he was. I respectfully submit that I would have to ignore what Scripture actually says and indulge in a lot of speculation to accept this position my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86522 | ||
Greetings Tim, It is with a heavy heart that I reply to you. I feel that you are choosing to ignore what anybody writes if it is not the answer you wish to hear. I will plainly answer your question where you ask "Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable?" The Answer: Nowhere in the entire Bible does it say that it is a parable. I should conclude then by your reasoning that because it does not explicitly say that Jesus was not using symbols, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus MUST not be symbolic but literal and that death must not be a sleep. That everywhere in the old testament where it speaks of death being a sleep is false and that the entire bible can truly be bent and twisted to mean whatever you want it to mean. Please take the examples below and show me that death is NOT a "sleep" state. 1) 1 Kings 2:10 "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David" 2) 1 Kings 11:21 "And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country." 3) 1 Kings 11:43 "And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead." 4) 1 Kings 14:20 "And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead" 5) 1 Kings 14:31 "And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead." 6) Matthew 27:52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose," 7) 1 Corinthians 15:20 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." 8) Deuteronomy 31:16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ..." 9) 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee,..." 10) Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;" 11) Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,..." In regards to your statement on Luke 16, The bible does NOT say that they were all in hades. It only says that the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. THEN it says the rich man died ALSO, and was buried. The difference being one is buried and the other is carried away. If you are going to be literal, then shouldn't it apply to the whole parable and not just where it fits in to the belief? Deut 34:5-6 says that Moses died and was buried. Jude 1:7 says that he was raised by Michael the archangel. There is no controversy here. If it was indeed Samuel, then why did he say in 1 Sam 28:15 "And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?..." What did he mean by bring me UP? Up from where? The grave? Hades? This would bring up a contradiction that states that only God can raise the dead. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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5 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | Morant61 | 86524 | ||
Greetings Phil! Thanks for your response my friend! Allow me to touch upon your points in order of ease! :-) 1) Moses: Jude 9 does not say that Moses was raised. That word, or any form of it, never occurs in the verse. So, I'm not sure where you are getting this from. 2) Samuel: I have posted before on the state of those prior to the resurrection of Christ. Samuel, and all those who died before Christ, were in Sheol/Hades. The only point we differ on is whether or not they were conscious during this time. I beleive that Scripture says that they were conscious. 1 Sam. 28 is one strand of evidence that those who have died are still conscious in Hades. If Scripture says that "Samuel said", the I take it at face value that it was actually Samuel who said it. So, since Scripture does not say that it was a demon, I don't accept that position. 3) Sleep: This one is simple my friend. All languages use euphemisms. That is all I believe Scripture means when it says that someone 'sleeps' or 'slept with his father's'. I don't believe that this can be stretched to mean that they are unconsious. Allow me to touch upon each verse that you cite. a) 1 Kings 2:10 - 'Slept' is Strong's number 7901. It can mean to lie down, to rest, to relax, to lodge, to lie down (as in death), to lie down (as in sexual relations). Notice that this verse describe David's death, not his status after death. b) 1 Kings 11:21 - Same as above. c) 1 Kings 11:43 - Same as above. d) 1 Kings 14:20 - Same as above. e) 1 Kings 14:31 - Same as above. f) Mt. 27:52 - 'Slept' is Strongs number 2837 "koimao". It can refer to literal sleep as in Mt. 28:13, figuratively to death as here. g) 1 Cor. 15:20 - Same as above. h) Deut. 31:16 - Same as the above OT verses. i) 2 Samuel 7:12 - Same as the above OT verses. j) Ps. 13:3 - 'Sleep' is Strong's number 3462 and has pretty much the same meaning as the above. k) Dan. 12:2 - Strong's number 3462. My point is simply this: each of these words has as their primary meaning 'literal sleep'. They can then be used to describe the body of the person who has died. They appear to be sleeping. They appear to be relaxed. They appear to be resting. But, it is a euphemism, not a description of the status of their spirit after death. In fact, nothing is said about their spirits at all. However, passages like 1 Sam. 28, Luke 16:19ff, and others, do talk about the status of those who have died. According to these passage, they were conscious. If all of these other verses did not exist, I could see where your position might make sense. However, these other verses do exist. So, I take the term 'sleep' in the way that most people do - just like I would terms like (broken hearted, sunrise, downcast, ect...). These terms, and others like them, are not intended as scientific descriptions, but as poetic language used to express certain meanings. As I said, if these other passages did not exist, I could go with you on this point. But, Luke 16:19ff is not called a parable anywhere. Therefore, when Jesus said that it happened, I believe it. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran 3) |
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6 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86526 | ||
Why whisk this away as a euphemism and not the entire story of the Rich Man and Lazarus as symbolic? My point in referring you to Samuel is that there is a controversy over this being Samuel or not. If it is indeed Samuel, then God is not the only one who can raise the dead. It would appear that this is a contradiction and the bible is false. If it is not Samuel, then who or what else can it be other than a deception or demon. Conscious or not in sheol/hades/grave is moot if it was indeed Samuel because the bible has contradicted itself in that Satan, the witch of Endor or whomever you choose to say, raised up Samuel from the grave. If sleep is a euphemism for death, then why did Jesus say to his disciples that Lazarus our friend sleepeth? Why did he not just tell them from the outstretch that Lazarus is dead? Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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7 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | Morant61 | 86532 | ||
Greetings Phil! Concerning Jesus, why use euphemisms at all? They are word pictures, but they are never necessary. :-) Why use figures of speech? Why use poetry? Concerning Samuel, the passage never actually says that the medium brought Samuel up, but it does call the spirit Samuel. So, I take it at face value that it was Samuel. Obviously, only God can raise the dead, so God must have brought Samuel's spirit back for a reason. This is borne out by the message the Samuel delivers from God to Saul. So, I would say that the apparent contradiction is based upon an assumption, not upon the text itself. Concerning Luke 16:19ff, euphemisms are one or two inoffensive words used as substitutes for another word. They are not parables! ;-) So, Luke 16:19ff by definition cannot be a euphemism and it is never called a parable. So, I take it as literal. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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