Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54251 | ||
"And this is exactly what theologians mean when they say that we are declared righteous." You are absolutely 100 percent wrong here. Declared righteous does not mean "pretend that someone is righteous." God looks at my sin and Christ's atonement and says, "paid in full." God looks at His Son's righteous life, and says, "This will go on your record." That is not pretending. The righteousness that gets us to heaven is earned, just not by us. The sin we commit has been paid for, just not by us. And nothing here implies that we m,ust become righteous in nature for the Father to accept us. Listen, there is a very important reason that Luther debated the Roman Catholic church on this very issue. This is not something the Reformers pulled out of thin air, as you seem to imply. I have demonstrated the biblical support of my position, and responded to every verse you have brought up. The evangelical church has historically held the position that I do; it is yours that has popped up in the last 200 years. That does not mean you are automatically wrong, but it means that you are likely wrong, unless you can come up with that biblical support that suggests that we are already 100 percent righteous and adequately responds to the difficulties I have raised regarding such an interpretation. Really, what are the implications of accepting the historic Protestant position that seem so dreadful to you? It is not works-righteousness. It does not go against the idea that we are destined for glory if we possess faith in Christ. Why is it so important that you see yourself as already arrived at righteousness, no matter how much real-life and biblical evidence is presented to the contrary? --Joe! |
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2 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54257 | ||
Joe, I agree with you, declaring us righteous IS NOT pretending. That is exactly my point, bro. My record (and yours) says, because of what Christ has done, RIGHTEOUS. My record used to say SINFUL - GUILTY. That was given to Christ and His righteous was given to me. So my record now has big, bold, letters that say RIGHTEOUS. I am forever thankful for that. You wrote: "I have demonstrated the biblical support of my position, and responded to every verse you have brought up." You did not address 2 Pet 1:4 that I recall. It says that we are partakers of the divine nature. You have admitted that you have a new nature in Christ (which, in all reality, is not part of justification). Is this new nature righteous in constitution? If it is divine (coming from God), then wouldn't it be so? You wrote: "Why is it so important that you see yourself as already arrived at righteousness, no matter how much real-life and biblical evidence is presented to the contrary?" I am not 100 percent righteous, Joe. I still have flesh with indwelling sin, just like you. But, as being born in Adam imparts a sinful nature to us, being born in Christ imparts a righteous nature to us. Lastly, "real-life" is not the standard of truth. God's Word is. And they is certainly biblical evidence to support that we are partakers of a new divine and righteous nature. My spirit is alive because of righteousness - Rom 8:10. In fact, according to Eph 4:24, my new self, which I obtained at new birth, was created (past tense) in righteousness and holiness. This does not come from me or my efforts, it comes from God on the basis of faith - Phil 3:9. So why is it so important that I see myself as having a righteousness (that did not come from me but is now attributed to me in Christ) that I can count on? Simply, because it is true. My new nature is righteous. My actions and thoughts are not always so. We live what we truly believe. As long as we believe that we are just sinners and unrighteous, that is how we will live. When we come to see yourself as God does - righteous, holy, joined to Christ, saints - then we will start living up to what we really are. It's that simple. Unfortunately, it's not "acceptable" by much of the Christian community that believes that the only difference between the Christian and the sinner is that the Christian is forgiven. Christ came that He might be our life - Col 3:4. He is not going to indwell an unrighteous person. So He much make that person righteous in order to live there. It is interesting that the average Christian believes that Christ comes to live in them, but they think that He joins Himself to an unrighteous creature. God never dwells where there is sin - Psalm 5:4. You have stated that you are not yet righteous. Yet you believe that Christ is in you. How can this be? McGracer |
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3 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54262 | ||
"You did not address 2 Pet 1:4 that I recall. It says that we are partakers of the divine nature. You have admitted that you have a new nature in Christ (which, in all reality, is not part of justification). Is this new nature righteous in constitution? If it is divine (coming from God), then wouldn't it be so?" Sorry, I meant to address it, but that blasted 5000-word limit keeps on making me edit myself (for the benefit of everyone else here, I am sure they will say!). We are partakers of the divine nature. That divine nature isn;t us. We don't partake of ourselves. We are partakers of Christ's divine nature. That is what the Lord's Supper, among other things, represents. Just as we partake of the elements, that points to our partaking of Christ's Spirit. See 1 Corinthians 12:13 for a parallel illustration. Partake means to "take part in" something, not to "be" something. We will never have a divine nature. That is reserved for Deity alone. You wrote: 'It's that simple. Unfortunately, it's not "acceptable" by much of the Christian community that believes that the only difference between the Christian and the sinner is that the Christian is forgiven.' I don't believe that at all. We are different from the unregenerate. You seem to think that the only two natures we can have are "fallen/natural" and "altogether righteous and holy" or even "divine." My new nature is not righteous yet (although it is becoming so by God's grace), but it certainly isn't the same as the one I had before my conversion. --Joe! |
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4 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54264 | ||
Joe, I agree that "all these things come from God." I hope that I have never insinuated anything less. I am what I am solely by God's grace alone. Nevertheless, there is a sense in which we partake and share, as you have said here, in Christ's Spirit. If all these wonderful blessings remain in the person of Christ alone, they will not benefit us one iota. This is one of the primary reasons He comes to indwell us - He wants union with His new creations. Well, I have shared on this subject enough, bro. Kalos is accusing me of arguing and wrangling over words so I'll drop it. :) Thanks for your challenging (and kind) interaction, bro. Talk to you later. McGracer |
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