Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54077 | ||
You wrote: "f we have not been made perfect yet, then why does the writer say that we have been (past tense) for ALL time?" There are a number of ways that Hebrews 10:14 could be interpreted in light of the rest of Scripture. First of all, you mention this as past tense, which undoubtedly it is. The question is when this perfection actually takes effect in the life of the believer. If we look at the verse carefully, it is Christ's sacrifice that has made His saints perfect. Christ's sacrificed secured that. But was I perfect from the moment that Christ's sacrifice was made? Was I perfect almost 2000 years before I was born? Was I born in a state of perfection? Note that our faith is not mentioned here as perfecting us, but Christ's sacrifice. Secondly, it is obvious to us that we are not yet perfect. Not only do we still sin, but there still remains for all of God's people the final aspect of our salvation: our glorification at the end of the age, when Christ returns and we become in nature everything that Christ is in His human nature. We will be unable to sin and possess a glorified body in conformity with Christ's own. If we are already, really and truly "perfect," then we couldn't really say that there is any improvement that is coming, because it is possible by definition to improve on something that is already "perfect." So we could very well conclude that the past tense is used here to show that Christ's sacrificed has once for all secured the perfection of God's people. Christ's sacrifice has accomplished the task, but it is still a future application to us. This is seen in other passages of Scripture, such as when Paul states in Romans 8:30 that God "glorified" us. Taking that verse in isolation, we could conclude that we are already glorified (which would be a pretty sad state of affairs if this is the best it is going to get!). However, in the same chapter Paul writes: "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him." --Romans 8:16-17 Here glorification is presented as a future reality hinging upon our suffering with Christ. In the same chapter he writes that "we may be glorified" and that "those whom He justified He also glorified." Is our glorification a future event or a past one? The best understanding of this, and the one that conforms to the rest of Scripture, is that glorification is a future event, guaranteed in eternity past, according to God's foreknowledge and on the grounds of the atonement of Jesus Christ. And I hold that our glorification is what is being referred to in Hebrews 10:14. It is grounded in Christ's sacrifice 2000 years ago (the past), but awaiting its full realization at the end of the age (future). --Joe! |
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2 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54084 | ||
Joe, Thanks for your well-thought out response. You may indeed be right. If I were to look at my experience and performance alone, I would have to conclude that I am not perfect because I still sin. If I were to look at the my condition alone, I would have to conclude that I am not yet glorified. And yet, if I were to look at my performance and experience, I wouldn't always conclude that I am justified, a new creation, born again, clothed with Christ, complete in Him, forgiven, holy, or even saved! So, to me, the question becomes, is my identity in Christ determined by what He did or by what I do (or what will happen to my body)? As you well know, there are many scriptures that speak of our sanctification in the past tense. There are also many that speak of it in the future tense. It is the same way with holiness. We are called holy. We are also told to be holy. I've found that most of the time, God's Word is quite clear and speaks for itself. If God says that I am already "perfected for all time", then I have a choice to believe it or to say that He doesn't mean what He says. If He says that I have already been glorified - Rom 8:30 - then I have the same choice. I must either look to my experience as the standard of truth or look to what He says. I may be naive, but I firmly believe that if God meant that our "perfection" was only future, He would have said so. Heb 10:14 would say, "For by one offering He WILL PERFECT WHEN WE DIE those whose are WILL THEN BE sanctified." I respectfully submit to you, brother, that this is NOT what it says. Nor does Heb 10:10 say, "By this will we WILL BE, WHEN WE DIE, SANCTIFIED through the DEATH OF YOUR BODY AT THAT TIME." I believe that these spiritual truths are NOT tied to the death of your body, but to the death and resurrection of HIS. It is our new birth in Christ that determines what we are, not our death. I'll close with this thought. I assume you believe that all men are born sinners, right? When are they made sinners? When they first sin? Is it their actions that make them sinners or is it their nature that makes them sin? I would contend that they sin BECAUSE they are ALREADY sinners. So when did you become everything that you are "in Adam"? When you are physically born. When do you become, in identity, everything that you are in Christ? Likewise, when you are born "again." Those who are in Adam do not become sinners when they die. Death does not determine identity. Birth does. Likewise, you do not become, in identity, holy, perfected, sanctified, righteous, when you die. The death of your body has NOTHING whatsoever to do with your spiritual condition OTHER THAN sealing it. Whatever spiritual condition you are in when you die - in Adam or in Christ - is what you will remain. As I said, Joe. You may be right. But I'm convinced that it is my new birth, not my eventual death, that determines who I am. It is Christ in me that imparts these wonderful characteristics that, as Peter says, allows me to here and now have everything I need for life and godliness. "We look at the things that are unseen for they are ETERNAL. The things that are seen are TEMPORAL." Where will you look for your identity, Joe? Will you look at the death of your body, a mere tent that houses the real you, for who you are in Christ? Or will you look back to the work of Christ and His resurrection for your spiritual identity. None of these things come from ourselves. They all come from our union with Him. He is the true Vine and source. We are merely the branches. As Paul writes in Rom 11:16 - "If the root (Christ) is holy, the branches ARE (not WILL BE) too." I will not call God a liar by insisting that He doesn't know what He said or that the writers of the NT had no concept of verb tenses. If He says it, that's good enough for my simple mind and faith. Thanks for the interaction. McGracer |
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3 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54090 | ||
Rest assured that I consider myself justified by God's grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. I wouldn't be a very good Calvinist if I didn't! :) I think this discussion hinges on what I have perceived to be two very different views regarding the application of Christ's redemption to the believer, or what many have termed the "order of salvation." The view you hold seems to be that everything that Christ's death has accomplished has already been given to us at the moment of salvation. You think (erroneously) that my view holds that nothing happens until we die. I think that the Bible presents salvation as a process that began in eternity past, has ramifications for our life in the present, and will inevitably be culminated in the future. Taking passages such as Romans 8:29-30 and Hebrews 10:14 into account, I see that my salvation began before the foundation of the world, when I was foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Centuries before I was born, the actual atonement of Christ for my sins took place in Judea. All of these things took place not only while I was still dead in my sins, but before I even existed! During my lifetime, I was called by the Holy Spirit, regenerated, and then justified (declared righteous before God) by means of faith in Christ's accomplished work. Christ paid for my sins in the first century, but the application of that came much later. Therefore, even though Romans 8:29-30 says that all those God foreknew and predestined he also called and justified (all past tense verbs), there was a point in your life and in mine when we had been foreknown and predestined but neither called nor justified (i.e. between our first birth and our second one). So for us calling and justification are past-tense realities (although not so for many of the foreknown on earth now who have yet to embrace Christ). Likewise, at our conversion we were set apart and we are progressively being made (by God's grace and the power of God's Spirit in us) more like Christ in this life in our attitudes and actions. This is sanctification, and it is a guaranteed part of our salvation as well. This is the stage we are in now, where God works in us to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). Glorification still awaits us, as I indicated in my previous post, but that does not mean that it is a mere possibility. God is the author of all of these events, from foreknowledge to glorification, and as Jesus said in John 6, no one is going to snatch me out of His hand. So while I hold that aspects of our salvation have not beome a present reality for us, I definitely believe that my hope for them is steadfast and sure, based on God's promises. That is why I think the Bible makes use of the past tense for things we have not experienced yet; because from God's eternal perspective, they are as good as done, an unbreakable chain of my salvation from God's foreknowledge in eternity past, to my regeneration and justification in my own biography, to my present and ongoing sanctification, to my future glorification. From God's eternal view, the deal was done before the world even began! Therefore, it really can;t be said that I am relying on myself, since I was not there when God planned it. --Joe! |
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4 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54106 | ||
Joe, You wrote: "The view you hold seems to be that everything that Christ's death has accomplished has already been given to us at the moment of salvation." Yes, Joe, that is the view I hold. 2 Pet 1:3 - Seeing that His divine power HAS GRANTED (past tense) to us EVERYTHING pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. But, could I make a stippulation here? This is how I would define it: In my spirit, where I am joined to God - 1 Cor 6:17 (yet distinct from Him i.e. I am NOT God, I am just in union with Him), these attributes (sanctification, holiness, righteousness, perfection, completeness) are ALREADY true. How could that Lord join Himself to me otherwise? Is is nothing that I have done, it is all HIS doing. It is by His doing that I am in His blessed Son. In my spirit, which is eternal, because I am joined to Him, I am as He is - 1 John 4:17 - "By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world." So ARE WE, Joe, HERE in THIS WORLD, not the next. Yet, at the same time, I realize that my soul is very much in the process of being sanctified, being made holy, being perfected, being cleansed, being made righteous. This is not an incongruity, it is a reality. I am becoming what I already am. I know, it sounds ludicrous, but it is not. It is called faith. The Israelites faced the same struggle and doubt when they first got to the promised land. It was already theirs. God had given it to Abraham and because they were his seed, his land was their land. All the needed to do was to put, in faith, put action to what was already true. But they didn't do it. Instead, they relied on their eye-sight and their experiences instead of God and His Word to them. God said, "It is already yours." They said, "Impossible. We are not there yet and we can't get there from here." As a result, that generation perished in the wilderness simply because of unbelief. Many Christians live the same way. All God's promises for abundant life, for holiness, for righteousness, for union with Jesus are all for "someday" - if not here, then when we get home. They come to Christ for the salvation He offers and then they spend the rest of their lives struggling to become what, in Him, they already are. In God's economy of faith, we become in action and attitude because we already are in constitution. You probably don't agree with this. That's okay. I can convince no one. That is His job. All I can do is to share. The New Testament says many things about us that our experience does not bear out. It says that we are citizens of heaven (Phil 3:20), that we have been washed, sanctified, justified (all past tense) (1 Cor 6:11). It says that we have already been made complete (Col 2:10). It says that we are already holy (Rom 11:6; Eph 4:24; Col 3:12; Heb 3:1; 1 Pet 2:9). It even says that we have been perfected for ALL time (Heb 10:14). It says that we are ALREADY seated with Him in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6). As long as we approach these truths from a fleshly view-point, we will remain, as the Israelites were, in unbelief and not enter His rest. We will be forever striving to become what He has already done in us in the spirit, eternal realm. I pray that you, brother, will enter the Sabbath-rest that remains for the people of God. The Sabbath-rest is not for "sinners". It is for saints who have grown tired of their own works and are fully trusting in His. Unless we learn to discern the difference between the spiritual realm that is not bound by time and the soul/body realm that is temporarily bound here, we will never "arrive." I become in experience what I already am. Experience said that the withered hand was permanent. God's realm proved that it was temporary. Experience said that Lazarus was permanently dead, resurrection was "someday". Jesus said, "Resurrection is today!" Experience said that Christ was permanently dead. The Spirit raised Him and said, "Not so." Don't be too quick to believe your eyes. We look not at the things that are seen, for the things that are seen are temporal (time-based). We look at the things that are NOT seen, for the things that are NOT seen (of God's spiritual realm) are ETERNAL (no beginning and no end). Spiritual things simply ARE because of the great I AM. May you grown in who you already are, brother Joe. McGracer |
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5 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54110 | ||
You wrote: 'I pray that you, brother, will enter the Sabbath-rest that remains for the people of God. The Sabbath-rest is not for "sinners". It is for saints who have grown tired of their own works and are fully trusting in His.' Well, I am fully trusting in His works for my justification (already having been completed) as I strive and press on and labor as Paul did,"so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:12) Thank you for your prayer! You wrote: "This is not an incongruity, it is a reality. I am becoming what I already am. I know, it sounds ludicrous, but it is not. It is called faith." It does sound illogical. Doesn't it make more sense to say that we are in the process of becoming what God has declared us to be IN CHRIST? Did my comments on Paul saying you and I WERE justified in Romans 8 (written 1900 years ago) not make sense? I would like to hear your comments on why the Holy Spirit moved Paul to write that God justified us at a point when we hadn't been born yet. And regarding the Sabbath rest. Saying that it "remains"...doesn't that mean that it lies ahead? That would make sense in the context and comparison with the Exodus. We are out of Egypt, never to return. All the people of God are guaranteed to arrive to the Promised Land. However, in the wilderness there is a sense of the "already" as well as the "not yet." Thanks again for your comments. I am glad you have returned to the Forum. --Joe! |
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6 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54115 | ||
Joe, You wrote: "It does sound illogical. Doesn't it make more sense to say that we are in the process of becoming what God has declared us to be IN CHRIST?" Certainly it sounds illogical. It is illogical for me to be born dead in trespasses and sins. It is illogical that Christ would be punished for my sins. It is illogical that I, who deserve nothing but eternal separation from God get eternal life instead. Yet it is grace. This is not sarcasm, bro, but where do you see that we are DECLARED to be anything? Can you show me a verse in the NASB from the NT that says that God DECLARES us as anything? I understand the theological definition of justification to be "declared righteous in God's sight." The problem is that definition isn't found in the scripture is it, not as we interpret it anyway. What do I mean? When we say that God declares us as being righteous, we are saying that although we are truly righteous, God pretends to see us that way. This is a falsehood. Why? Because that would be like a judge having mercy on a criminal, saying to him, "I declare that you are righteous," and then releasing him. The criminal would not be righteous, he would simply be forgiven. Justice was not met in this case. The judge simply declared something that was not true. In our case, the judge (God) declares us righteous because we ARE righteous. Why? Because Christ was made sin on our behalf. When did this happen? At the cross. God does not DECLARE something that is not there. God first GIVES US the righteousness of Jesus Christ. There is an exchange. He took ALL of my sin. I get ALL of His righteousness. Now, at justification, when God declares me righteous, justice has been served. Christ took my death. I get His life. He took my sins. I have His righteousness. Therefore, God DECLARES me righteous because I am. For any just judge to declare a criminal righteous, that criminal must be either truly innocent or someone but bear the punishment. To insist that we are not the righteousness of Christ, insists that He did not take our sins. The problem with typical justification interpretation is that folks say, "God declared me righteous and now I am going to earn what I've been declared." This is backwards from the Christ-life. Grace living says, "God has made me righteous in spirit, I am going to live out what He has made me and let it become my experience. You wrote: "Did my comments on Paul saying you and I WERE justified in Romans 8 (written 1900 years ago) not make sense? I would like to hear your comments on why the Holy Spirit moved Paul to write that God justified us at a point when we hadn't been born yet." Because, as I have already said, in God's realm (not bound by time or space) things just ARE. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. That's illogical, is it not? We are already seated with Christ in the heavenlies. That's quite illogical because I'm sitting here typing. So we have to decide whether we are going to believe in a God who may seem, from our viewpoint, illogical or whether we will just take Him at His Word. You may not agree with my viewpoint, but as long as you understand it, you can see why I say that many Christians are still wandering in the wilderness. The promised land is a place of rest. It is resting in Christ's finished work. God has already blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing in the heavenly places (where we are also seated) in Christ. There is nothing more that we need except to believe it and learn to grow into what we already are. An apple does not become more of an apple as it matures. It simply grows into what it already is. McGracer |
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7 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54192 | ||
"This is not sarcasm, bro, but where do you see that we are DECLARED to be anything? Can you show me a verse in the NASB from the NT that says that God DECLARES us as anything?" I don't know why you are limiting us to the NASB, as if that is how the authors wrote it, but here goes. Paul in Romans 4 compares our justification to that of Abraham and David: 'What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."' --Romans 4:1-8 The two aspects of justification toward humans are mentioned here. First, our faith is CREDITED as righteousness. Notice that this does not say that our faith makes us righteous, but that because of Christ's sinless life and substitutionary death, God counts our faith as righteousness. "Counting" and "crediting" our faith as being something else does not entail a transformation of us ourselves into righteous beings. The other side of our justification is noted in David's quote. Our sins are not counted against us. We suddenly do not become sinless, but rather our sins are not counted against us. Again, this would be injustice on God's part if it weren't for the role of Jesus Christ. This is why classical Protestantism holds to a doctrine of "imputed" righteousness rather than the Roman Catholic doctrine of "infused" or "inherent" righteousness. While Protestants hold that we are regenerated (born again with a new nature), there is no passage in the New Testament that insists that we are already righteous in our own right, meaning that now apart from Christ we are able to stand before the infinitely holy God of the universe on our own. There is a disturbing bit of theology that arises as well if we say that God makes us instantaneously righteous at our justification, because the doctrine of justification is a two-way street. Not only are we credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but also Christ on the Cross was "credited" with every single last sin of His people. If we insist that justification makes us righteous by nature, then the opposite must necessarily be true, that on the Cross God the Son became a sinner in nature as well! The idea that Jesus became some kind of super-demonic being on the Cross may not cause some of the "big-wigs" on TBN to flinch, but it is in reality a monstrous notion to think that the second Person of the Trinity even for a brief span of hours became unholy and sinful in His very nature. But just like in algebra, what happens to one side of the equation has to happen on the other. One other observation I would like to make regarding our natures. If we are truly righteous in our own right now, then Jesus' work as our Great High Priest would be done. No more unrighteousness means no more need for a priest to come before God on our behalf. And, while Jesus did sit down at the right hand of God, indicating that His sacrificial work was indeed "once for all," the New Testament also clearly indicates that his ministry of intercession for us is an ongoing one (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25) and that He is continuously our Advocate before the Father (1 John 2:1). If God already sees us as righteous on our own, such activities on Jesus' part become unnecessary. You use the apple analogy to demonstrate something growing into what it already is. I do not find that to be the Biblical model of sanctification. We are not simply growing from a baby apple to a big daddy apple. We are being constantly transformed (i.e. changing from one thing to another) and renewed (Romans 12:1-2). We are definitely in the process of change from one state to another, but it is quite evident to me that the Holy Spirit is active within us making those changes rather than our own "spiritual DNA" just manifesting itself over time. --Joe! |
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8 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54209 | ||
Joe, I agree, the OT saints were credited righteousness because Christ's sacrifice had not yet been completed. But you didn't answer my question. Where does the NT say that the NT believer is DECLARED righteous? I agree that OT saints were CREDITED righteousness because the payment for sin had not yet been fully made. But it was at the cross, what it not? So the NT believer is MADE righteous - Rom 5:17,19; Rom 8;10; 2 Cor 5:21; Eph 4:24; Phil 3:9. None of these verses mention DECLARE, do they? Where does the NT say that we, who are indwelt by the living Jesus Christ are DECLARED anything? You wrote: "This is why classical Protestantism holds to a doctrine of "imputed" righteousness rather than the Roman Catholic doctrine of "infused" or "inherent" righteousness. While Protestants hold that we are regenerated (born again with a new nature), there is no passage in the New Testament that insists that we are already righteous in our own right, meaning that now apart from Christ we are able to stand before the infinitely holy God of the universe on our own." Joe, you misunderstand what I am saying. I have never said that we are righteous solely in our own right or apart from Christ. NEVER! Quite to the contrary, I am saying that we are righteous BECAUSE of our union with Him, not apart from Him. We are no longer apart from Him and, indeed, never can be. So I agree that I have NO righteousness of my own apart from His that has been given to me. But the fact remains that His righteousness is now mine, this is NT justification. God declares what is so. It is finished! You have stated that you believe that you have a new nature. Is that new nature righteous? 2 Pet 1:4 says that we are partakers of the divine nature. Again, is that nature righteous? If so, then isn't that part of you righteous? We need an intercessor because we still have an accusor, don't we? You wrote: "Not only are we credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but also Christ on the Cross was "credited" with every single last sin of His people." This is not what the Bible says, bro. 2 Cor 5:21 says "He MADE Him (not credited Him) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." MADE, Joe, not credited. I don't understand how it happened. But it is what God says and I believe it. I don't understand the Trinity but even though that particular word is NOT used in the Bible, I believe it. So if God says MADE, then, guess what? it is MADE. I believe that the apostle Peter gives us a clue to how God did this in 1 Peter 2:24: "and He Himself bore our sins in His BODY (not in His spirit or in his nature) on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Have we died to sin? Most assuredly. Do we live to righteousness? Most assuredly. Romans 6:2,7,11,17,18,22. 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. You wrote: "If God already sees us as righteous on our own, such activities on Jesus' part become unnecessary." Again, Joe, you accuse me falsely. I never said that we are righteous on our own. We are righteous because we are joined to Him. Period. I cannot make it any clearer than that. We are righteous solely because of Christ and His finished work. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you seeking your righteousness apart from Him? McGracer |
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9 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54216 | ||
You wrote: "Where does the NT say that we, who are indwelt by the living Jesus Christ are DECLARED anything?" You are missing Paul's entire point in Romans 4. Our justification is identical to that of Abraham and David. He even states this dirctly in Romans 4:5, using the present tense. That is the whole reason he brings it up! You wrote: "Joe, you misunderstand what I am saying. I have never said that we are righteous solely in our own right or apart from Christ. NEVER! Quite to the contrary, I am saying that we are righteous BECAUSE of our union with Him, not apart from Him. We are no longer apart from Him and, indeed, never can be." Well, you seem to be saying that the righteousness that saves us is now a natural one of our own (even if given by God) rather than Christ's righteousness applied to us. There is a big difference there. As far as 2 Corinthians 5:21, many translations indicate that an alternate rendering of the verse would be "a sin offering." Again, the Greek is still Greek to me, but that would be in keeping with the OT sacrifices which prefigured Christ, in which the offering did not become sinful itself, but rather the sins of the people were laid upon the animal. See Isaiah 53:6,11. Your quote of 1 Peter 2:24 supports this as well: Jesus bore the sins (carried them) in His body. That is not to say that He became sinful Himself. God reckoned Him so on the Cross, but to say that God became sinful is to say that God ceased to be God. You wrote: "So I agree that I have NO righteousness of my own apart from His that has been given to me. But the fact remains that His righteousness is now mine, this is NT justification. God declares what is so. It is finished!" His righteousness is now indeed ours. You have yet to show from Scripture, however, that His righteousness, earned during His earthly life, now means that we have been transformed into righteous beings. If I receive a billion dollars earned by someone else, that makes me a very rich man, but it doesn't make me either the billion dollars or by nature the kind of person who has earned a billion dollars. And the word "credited," which Paul applies to US in Romans 4, implies the same kind of transaction. You wrote: "We need an intercessor because we still have an accusor, don't we?" Not if the Judge "sees no sin at all" in those already justified. An accuser would have no evidence to present. And since righteousness entails the complete absence of sin, a God who has already MADE us righteous in nature wouldn't need someone to present us as righteous before Him. And you yourself have already quoted the verses that show that Jesus is active in presenting us as righteous. If we were already made righteous, we could present ourselves at this point in time. That is the inescapable conclusion I am wanting you to see. If we see justification as us being now righteous in nature, we no longer need Jesus Christ. Perfectly righteous people no longer need advocates or mediators between them and God. And that is the problem. As believing Christians we still do need Christ to continue His priestly role, continuously pointing to His one sacrifice on our behalf. We cannot say at the same time that we are righteous because of our union with Christ (which, understanding it differently from you, I can readily accept) and that we are perfectly righteous in our new natures and therefore now in a state fit to stand before the Father on our own. "We are righteous solely because of Christ and His finished work. Wouldn't you agree?" No, I thought that was the heart of our argument. :) We are credited with Christ's righteousness because of His finished work by means of faith. We will certainly BE righteous according to the Father's forewknowledge and plan, because of Christ's finished work and the transforming work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, a work of God's free grace that is going on our lives now. "Or are you seeking your righteousness apart from Him?" Now that is something I wish YOU would stop saying. When have I ever suggested that I am going to earn a righteousness of my own? When have I ever stated or implied that our ongoing sanctification occurs apart from the work of the Spirit? When have I suggested that the glorification you and I will share in one day is in any way contingent upon my puny self? With love and respect, I have to point out that the fallacy you are making is that because I hold that God has not already made us righteous, you seem to think that I believe that it is up to me to do it apart from Him. Nothing could be further from my views or that of classical Protestantism. God is the author of my salvation. Christ is the author and perfecter of my faith. HE will perfect. It WILL happen. It just hasn't YET. --Joe! |
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10 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54222 | ||
Joe, I guess the difference comes down to our views of justification and sanctification. You seem to believe that God has declared you righteous (though you, as a person - your identity - are not so) and that you are now becoming more so through the process of sanctification. So you seem to feel that justification opens the door for God to now sanctify you and gradually make you, as a person, more righteous. I believe that God has already made me, through my union with Him, a righteous person. My new nature is a righteous one. I don't view justification as simply God pretending that I as righteous so that He can make me more righteous. I view Him declaring me righteous because He has made me, as a person, already righteous. My sanctification is a process whereby God manifest through my thoughts and actions what is already true of me as a person. I am not changing my thoughts and actions to become something that I am not. My thoughts (renewing my mind to the true of His Word) and my actions (submitting myself as a living sacrifice and allowing God to live through me) are a RESULT of what He has ALREADY done at the deepest part of me. I am not being sanctified to attain that which I do not already have. I am being sanctified outwardly BECAUSE, at the core of who I am, Christ is there and has ALREADY sanctified me inwardly. Thanks for your interaction, Joe. It's obvious that we agree as to the end result, that Christ be glorified in us and that we be made righteous, sanctified, and holy. The difference is that you feel this will be gradually accomplished down here and consumated at the death of your body. I believe that it is already finished in God's realm (heaven), that I get to experience that down here, and that my righteousness, sanctification, and holiness were consumated at the cross and resurrection of His body, not my own. Grace and peace to you, bro. May you grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. McGracer |
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