Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54209 | ||
Joe, I agree, the OT saints were credited righteousness because Christ's sacrifice had not yet been completed. But you didn't answer my question. Where does the NT say that the NT believer is DECLARED righteous? I agree that OT saints were CREDITED righteousness because the payment for sin had not yet been fully made. But it was at the cross, what it not? So the NT believer is MADE righteous - Rom 5:17,19; Rom 8;10; 2 Cor 5:21; Eph 4:24; Phil 3:9. None of these verses mention DECLARE, do they? Where does the NT say that we, who are indwelt by the living Jesus Christ are DECLARED anything? You wrote: "This is why classical Protestantism holds to a doctrine of "imputed" righteousness rather than the Roman Catholic doctrine of "infused" or "inherent" righteousness. While Protestants hold that we are regenerated (born again with a new nature), there is no passage in the New Testament that insists that we are already righteous in our own right, meaning that now apart from Christ we are able to stand before the infinitely holy God of the universe on our own." Joe, you misunderstand what I am saying. I have never said that we are righteous solely in our own right or apart from Christ. NEVER! Quite to the contrary, I am saying that we are righteous BECAUSE of our union with Him, not apart from Him. We are no longer apart from Him and, indeed, never can be. So I agree that I have NO righteousness of my own apart from His that has been given to me. But the fact remains that His righteousness is now mine, this is NT justification. God declares what is so. It is finished! You have stated that you believe that you have a new nature. Is that new nature righteous? 2 Pet 1:4 says that we are partakers of the divine nature. Again, is that nature righteous? If so, then isn't that part of you righteous? We need an intercessor because we still have an accusor, don't we? You wrote: "Not only are we credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but also Christ on the Cross was "credited" with every single last sin of His people." This is not what the Bible says, bro. 2 Cor 5:21 says "He MADE Him (not credited Him) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." MADE, Joe, not credited. I don't understand how it happened. But it is what God says and I believe it. I don't understand the Trinity but even though that particular word is NOT used in the Bible, I believe it. So if God says MADE, then, guess what? it is MADE. I believe that the apostle Peter gives us a clue to how God did this in 1 Peter 2:24: "and He Himself bore our sins in His BODY (not in His spirit or in his nature) on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Have we died to sin? Most assuredly. Do we live to righteousness? Most assuredly. Romans 6:2,7,11,17,18,22. 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. You wrote: "If God already sees us as righteous on our own, such activities on Jesus' part become unnecessary." Again, Joe, you accuse me falsely. I never said that we are righteous on our own. We are righteous because we are joined to Him. Period. I cannot make it any clearer than that. We are righteous solely because of Christ and His finished work. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you seeking your righteousness apart from Him? McGracer |
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2 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | Reformer Joe | 54216 | ||
You wrote: "Where does the NT say that we, who are indwelt by the living Jesus Christ are DECLARED anything?" You are missing Paul's entire point in Romans 4. Our justification is identical to that of Abraham and David. He even states this dirctly in Romans 4:5, using the present tense. That is the whole reason he brings it up! You wrote: "Joe, you misunderstand what I am saying. I have never said that we are righteous solely in our own right or apart from Christ. NEVER! Quite to the contrary, I am saying that we are righteous BECAUSE of our union with Him, not apart from Him. We are no longer apart from Him and, indeed, never can be." Well, you seem to be saying that the righteousness that saves us is now a natural one of our own (even if given by God) rather than Christ's righteousness applied to us. There is a big difference there. As far as 2 Corinthians 5:21, many translations indicate that an alternate rendering of the verse would be "a sin offering." Again, the Greek is still Greek to me, but that would be in keeping with the OT sacrifices which prefigured Christ, in which the offering did not become sinful itself, but rather the sins of the people were laid upon the animal. See Isaiah 53:6,11. Your quote of 1 Peter 2:24 supports this as well: Jesus bore the sins (carried them) in His body. That is not to say that He became sinful Himself. God reckoned Him so on the Cross, but to say that God became sinful is to say that God ceased to be God. You wrote: "So I agree that I have NO righteousness of my own apart from His that has been given to me. But the fact remains that His righteousness is now mine, this is NT justification. God declares what is so. It is finished!" His righteousness is now indeed ours. You have yet to show from Scripture, however, that His righteousness, earned during His earthly life, now means that we have been transformed into righteous beings. If I receive a billion dollars earned by someone else, that makes me a very rich man, but it doesn't make me either the billion dollars or by nature the kind of person who has earned a billion dollars. And the word "credited," which Paul applies to US in Romans 4, implies the same kind of transaction. You wrote: "We need an intercessor because we still have an accusor, don't we?" Not if the Judge "sees no sin at all" in those already justified. An accuser would have no evidence to present. And since righteousness entails the complete absence of sin, a God who has already MADE us righteous in nature wouldn't need someone to present us as righteous before Him. And you yourself have already quoted the verses that show that Jesus is active in presenting us as righteous. If we were already made righteous, we could present ourselves at this point in time. That is the inescapable conclusion I am wanting you to see. If we see justification as us being now righteous in nature, we no longer need Jesus Christ. Perfectly righteous people no longer need advocates or mediators between them and God. And that is the problem. As believing Christians we still do need Christ to continue His priestly role, continuously pointing to His one sacrifice on our behalf. We cannot say at the same time that we are righteous because of our union with Christ (which, understanding it differently from you, I can readily accept) and that we are perfectly righteous in our new natures and therefore now in a state fit to stand before the Father on our own. "We are righteous solely because of Christ and His finished work. Wouldn't you agree?" No, I thought that was the heart of our argument. :) We are credited with Christ's righteousness because of His finished work by means of faith. We will certainly BE righteous according to the Father's forewknowledge and plan, because of Christ's finished work and the transforming work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, a work of God's free grace that is going on our lives now. "Or are you seeking your righteousness apart from Him?" Now that is something I wish YOU would stop saying. When have I ever suggested that I am going to earn a righteousness of my own? When have I ever stated or implied that our ongoing sanctification occurs apart from the work of the Spirit? When have I suggested that the glorification you and I will share in one day is in any way contingent upon my puny self? With love and respect, I have to point out that the fallacy you are making is that because I hold that God has not already made us righteous, you seem to think that I believe that it is up to me to do it apart from Him. Nothing could be further from my views or that of classical Protestantism. God is the author of my salvation. Christ is the author and perfecter of my faith. HE will perfect. It WILL happen. It just hasn't YET. --Joe! |
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3 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54222 | ||
Joe, I guess the difference comes down to our views of justification and sanctification. You seem to believe that God has declared you righteous (though you, as a person - your identity - are not so) and that you are now becoming more so through the process of sanctification. So you seem to feel that justification opens the door for God to now sanctify you and gradually make you, as a person, more righteous. I believe that God has already made me, through my union with Him, a righteous person. My new nature is a righteous one. I don't view justification as simply God pretending that I as righteous so that He can make me more righteous. I view Him declaring me righteous because He has made me, as a person, already righteous. My sanctification is a process whereby God manifest through my thoughts and actions what is already true of me as a person. I am not changing my thoughts and actions to become something that I am not. My thoughts (renewing my mind to the true of His Word) and my actions (submitting myself as a living sacrifice and allowing God to live through me) are a RESULT of what He has ALREADY done at the deepest part of me. I am not being sanctified to attain that which I do not already have. I am being sanctified outwardly BECAUSE, at the core of who I am, Christ is there and has ALREADY sanctified me inwardly. Thanks for your interaction, Joe. It's obvious that we agree as to the end result, that Christ be glorified in us and that we be made righteous, sanctified, and holy. The difference is that you feel this will be gradually accomplished down here and consumated at the death of your body. I believe that it is already finished in God's realm (heaven), that I get to experience that down here, and that my righteousness, sanctification, and holiness were consumated at the cross and resurrection of His body, not my own. Grace and peace to you, bro. May you grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. McGracer |
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