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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Forgiveness - part 3 of 3 | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16541 | ||
Forgiveness - part 3 of 3 (pant, pant) Now can Christ’s statement, “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, then your heavenly Father will not forgive your transgression” be true after the cross? I submit that it cannot. See these verses: Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us ALL our transgressions. Eph 4:32 - Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also HAS FORGIVEN you. Col 3:13 - bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord FORGAVE you, so also should you. We now, as New Testament believers, forgive as, because, we HAVE BEEN forgiven. When were we forgiven ALL our sins? At the cross. Our forgiveness is part of our redemption – Eph 1:7; Col 1:14. It is no longer, I believe, conditional. The ultimate sin offering, the body of Christ has been made once-for-all – 1 Pet 3:18; Heb 9:26; Heb 10:12,14. Forgiveness of sins is secured. It is finished! So, what happens if a Christian does not forgive? According to scripture, we will give an account for what we do in our bodies – Rom 14:10-12. There is still rewards to be had. But I don’t believe that we will not be forgiven. There is too many verses that say otherwise. In closing, please see Heb 10:17,18. This is an important verse that describes one of the blessings that we, as well as future Israel, participate in under the New Covenant. God says here that He remembers our sins no more. Do we believe this verse? Isn’t Christ the mediator of this Covenant? Why does God remember our sins no more? Is it because He is having memory problems? Hardly. It is because of verse 18. It is because there IS forgiveness for ALL sins for ALL mankind for ALL time. This forgiveness exists. But it is only received upon placing one’s faith and trust in Jesus Christ’s sacrifice that was made 2000 years ago – Acts 10:43; Acts 26:18. Is there any other offering for sin? Not according to verse 18. Christ’s offering was COMPLETELY sufficient. We need to rest in that. We need to be thankful for that sacrifice and proclaim to the world, “To Him who loves us and released us from our sins BY HIS BLOOD – and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father – to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. – Rev 1:5 - Bill Mc I hope this helps. I hope it answers your question. And, though you may not agree with me, that's OK, at least you know the reason for the hope within me. Blessings in Christ, Bill Mc |
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2 | Forgiveness - part 3 of 3 | Matt 6:14 | Morant61 | 16552 | ||
Greetings Bill! Again, excellent posts my friend! I would only make two points to this post! 1) Under your explanation, the statement of Mt. 6:14-15 would not have mattered even before the death of Christ. Why? Because, forgiveness of sins was obtained through the sin sacrifice, not through forgiving others. So, what part did forgiveness of others play in our forgiveness. 2) Forgiveness can still be conditional. The reason I say this is because, like you I assume, I believe in an unlimited atonement. All sins, past, present, and future, of every man, woman, and child, were atoned for at the cross. We only received the benefit of that forgiveness when we accept Christ. A case could be made that we could also cease to abide in Christ and remove ourselves from God's forgiveness. I appreciate your effort in this post. And yes, I know the reason for the hope within us both! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Forgiveness, is it conditional? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16568 | ||
Dear Tim, Please let me respond to your questions and, if you could add anything further, I would be interested and most appreciative. 1) Yes, I believe that forgiveness was obtained through the animal sacrifice in the OT. However, did God just issue a, for lack of a better word, 'blanket forgiveness' for everyone? Or did He actually look at individual's hearts and accept the offering based upon their attitudes? I am not honestly 100 percent sure here. I know that He told Saul, "Obedience is better than sacrifice." I.e. 'Don't just do what YOU want to do, and then come to Me with a sin offering and think that I HAVE to accept it.' I'm not sure where the scripture reference is (help me out here), but in one place God said something to the effect of, 'Stop your offerings, they are making Me sick because your hearts are far from Me.' Sorry that I can remember the reference or exact wording. So, I think a strong case can be made that, just like in salvation, the people needed to exercise faith in what God provided and God honored and responded to that faith. Is this way Christ told them to, basically, check their hearts before offering their sacrifice? Obviously, in the OT, the sacrificial system required that the offerings be made, but did everyone place their faith in them? Probably not. So was everyone forgiven just because they brought an offering? I don't think so. There was even a problem between Cain and Abel's offerings (I know, different type). But you know, Tim, I can't count the times in the past that I have gone to the altar (under the New Covenant obviously) to seek forgiveness when my own heart was not right? I just wanted forgiveness without being changed. God always sees my heart. And He KNOWS if I am sincere. As you know from my infamous 1 John 1:9 post, I no longer ask for forgiveness. It is not faith to ask for what God has already given me. But it is faith to thank Him for it and ask Him to show me where I am not walking in the Spirit, where I sin, where I am still walking in the flesh. So, yes I 'confess', I agree with God, but I don't ask for forgiveness. 2) I still don't feel that forgiveness is conditional. I do believe in concept of unlimited atonement (but I wouldn't use that word. Atonement is no where found in the Greek NT and I think that it reinforces that Christ's blood only 'covers' as opposed to takes away our sins). But you and I disagree as to what folks call 'eternal security' for reasons that we have already discussed. I see a way too many scriptures in the proper New Covenant (after Christ's death) that substantiate that we are baptized into Christ, united with Him, made a new creation, adopted by God, made alive with Him, born again, called children of God, citizens of heaven, made complete in Him, heirs of God, indwelt by His Spirit, partakers of the Divine nature, reconciled to God, redeemed, made righteous, called saints, saved, sealed, translated out of darkness into light, etc. (What a mouthful) If it is true that we can stop being all these things and remove ourselves from God and His forgiveness, I sure wish He would have prodded the NT writers to discuss it more fully and with greater clarity. If you can 'lose your salvation' or whatever label you want to stick on it, it seems like something with such dire consequences (ending up in Hell) would have been addressed much more than 2 or 3 verses of 'if you continue.' :) I'm not poking fun, but I do recall our prior interaction and, no, I still don't have an answer. Well, my fingers are getting tired... Thanks again, Tim. Grow in grace. In Him, Bill Mc |
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4 | Forgiveness, is it conditional? | Matt 6:14 | Morant61 | 16596 | ||
Greetings Bill! 1) I can buy that faith played a part in the Old Testament as well as in the New! 2) I'll convert you yet! :-) Thanks for your responses! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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