Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does it take away sins or not? | Lev 16:34 | Bill Mc | 20075 | ||
Brothers in Christ, Here is a very interesting 'perception' of the whole argument - Calvinism vs. Arminianism. If your mind is already made up, this probably will not help. But if you are open to searching for the truth of the whole issue, then you might find this enlightening: http://theshovel.net/argument/index.htm In Christ, Bill Mc |
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2 | Does it take away sins or not? | Lev 16:34 | Reformer Joe | 20083 | ||
Where did you dig this guy up? :) He seems to use a lot of words to say virtually nothing at all. Rather than being enlightened, I just came away scratching my head, wondering if he had some point in there. The only thing I could glean from it is that he takes pleasure in ignoring the issues, despite the fact that they obviously are of some importance if they are revealed in Scripture. Rejecting theological terminology does not make one profoundly spiritual and insightful. I repeat my charge: anyone who thinks in the slightest about the God of the Bible will come to certain conclusions about His chracter, nature, and overall plan. These conclusions will conform closely to either Arminianism or Reformed theology. You have made assertions yourself in your posts which place you pretty squarely in one camp, even if you reject the label itself. While I hold Arminians who have placed their trust in Christ to be my fellow heirs with Christ Jesus, I hold them to be wrong on some pretty important issues about God's modus operandi. Our beliefs affect the way that we live and worship and evangelize. Arminians who understand (and yet reject) Calvinism would consider me a fellow Christian as well. They also hold that I am wrong. They also realize that it is much more of a significant isuue than whether the choir should wear robes or not. I can and do fellowship with individuals whom I hold to be completely wrong on these issues, just as I can fellowship with people who hold different views on the mode and manner of baptism. However, it is foolishness to ignore God's revealed word and proudly state "I am neither." The only "neither" is a fence-sitter who refuses to think about God at all. --Joe! |
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3 | Does it take away sins or not? | Lev 16:34 | Morant61 | 20084 | ||
Support....................................... Greetings Joe! Well said! I have yet to see a third option. Unless one counts universalism, which Scripture does not support in any way at all. Your Arminian Brother in Christ :-) Tim Moran |
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4 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | nicko715 | 198710 | ||
Virtually each of the notes in this string say that Scripture does not support universalism. However, there are many verses that do support it. For example: 1 Corinthians 15.22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; These are just a few, but space is limited. How can one say that Scripture does not support all being reconciled to God? Nick |
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5 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | DocTrinsograce | 198712 | ||
Hi, Nick... Welcome to the forum! There are four distinct teachings entitled universalism. Regardless, context is absolutely crucial if you are to render a sound exegesis of Scripture. The first verse you mention is discussing the doctrine of imputation in regard to the federal head of humanity (Adam) and the federal head of the redeemed (Christ). The chapter is about resurrection. The other three are speaking of the day, yet to come, in which all creation acknowledges the sovereign authority of the Lord (Zechariah 14:9), which are not discussing redemption at all. Consequently, these verses yield an inadequate Scriptural substantiation for universalism -- at least, they do on a forum founded on sola Scriptura. Of the "many verses" you mention in your first paragraph, could you provide references of those which, in context, directly support this teaching? In Him, Doc |
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6 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | nicko715 | 198717 | ||
Hello Doc, Yes, 1 Cor 15 is talking about resurrection. That is the reconciliation with God. The wages of sin is death (Rom 6.23) which correlates with Gen when God tell Adam and Eve that their punishment will be death. All die because of Adam, but all will be made alive because of Christ. The other three are talking about when all creation acknowledges the authority of God. However, has His love for them now vanished? Is his anger and wrath greater than His love? At what point would you not accept your lost child returning to you (ie prodigal son)? God is interested in saving, not destroying. Once He has revealed Himself to all, we will all acknowledge and worship. God's love knows no boundaries. Anyway, a few other verses would be: 1 Tim 4.10 - For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 2 Cor 5.18-19 - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 1 Tim 2.4-6 - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. There are still more, but these are just a couple more. Nick |
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7 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | DocTrinsograce | 198722 | ||
Hi, Nick... Sorry, if you're going to argue context, then we've clearly got more serious problems than heterodoxy. You cited 1 Timothy 4:10. Interesting that you cite this verse. Your use of it is atypical. Synergists use it to refute the Monergist doctrine of Definite Atonement. Anyway, note that it speaks of the God (rather than just the Son) in two ways: in general and in particular. Had Paul intended the sense you suggest, he'd have not added the "specially" clause. Bringing the full scope of Scripture to bear on this verse, the orthodox interpretation has been that God is Savior to all men potentially, but of believers effectually. You cited 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. This is another one of those context verses. Think: Who is "us" (verse 18)? You cited 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Again, another set of verses used by Synergists. The orthodox interpretation: We are to pray for everyone, for God has not made us privy to those He will effectually call. Christ is the sufficient ransom for as many as would be saved. You'll probably want to try Colossians 1:20 or 1 John 4:14 now. I'm afraid I have to head off to bed. There are others who can continue the discussion if they choose. In Him, Doc |
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8 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | nicko715 | 198725 | ||
Hello Doc, I am really not sure what you are getting at for 1 Tim 4:10. You said that "Had Paul intended the sense you suggest, he'd have not added the "specially" clause. Bringing the full scope of Scripture to bear on this verse, the orthodox interpretation has been that God is Savior to all men potentially, but of believers effectually." - First off, I am not sure what God is potentially the saviour of all men means. God has the power to save them all but doesn't? God doesn't live up to His potential? I am not sure what you are saying there, but you basically just add the words potentially, which aren't there. - Second, the "specially" clause doesn't negate what he said earlier. Check out these other verses that use the same word translated "specially" Gal 6.10 - As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. So we should potentially be good to all men, but in effect just to other Christians Phil 4.22 - All the saints salute you, chiefly (same Greek word) they that are of Caesar's household. All saints potentially salute you, but in effect just they that are of Caesar's household 1 Tim 5.8 - But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. So you should potentially provide for your own, but in effect just your own house. 2 Tim 4.13 - The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. Potentially bring all the books, but really just bring the parchments. No, none of these suggest that the first statement is negated by the use of the word specially in the second statement. It just doesn't work that way. You also say "Bringing the full scope of Scripture to bear on this verse". What this really means is "this is how my theology interprets this verse. We already know that God doesn't save everyone, so this verse must mean... All of us do this (myself included). We try to cram the Word of God into our theology. We do not use the word "specially" to negate the phrase before it, and to suggest so is to cram the verse into existing theology. 2 Corinthians 5-18:19 I was focusing on verse 19 which says " God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself," not the us in verse 18 which is talking about followers. 1 Tim 2:4-6, Not sure what you are saying here. You keep mentioning orthodox interpretations, but I am not interested in orthodox interpretations. What does the Scripture say? Our orthodox interpretation is merely the tradition of men. And we have "word of God of none effect through your tradition". I don't mean to slam you personally, just that I am not concerned with what learned theologians have to say. Finally, Col 1:20, 1 John 4:14, and many others say the same thing. Basically God will reconcile all and Jesus is the saviour of the world or maybe the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world, etc. |
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9 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | Val | 198728 | ||
Nick, if you don't mind me asking, what denomination teaches you this view? | ||||||
10 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | nicko715 | 198730 | ||
Val, I don't know what denomination teaches this. The church I attend doesn't, but it's still a great body of believers. This view has come from years of wrestling with certain issues and much studying (Scripture and other writers). The fact that God will ultimately reconcile all seems to fit more properly with how God describes Himself in Scripture. Here are a few that compare His anger and His mercy Psalms 30.5 - For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. Psalms 103.8 - The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. Psalms 148.8-9 - The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy. The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. Lamen 3.31-33 – for the Lord will not cast off forever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. Jonah 4.2 - And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil. Micah 7.18-19 - Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy. He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. God's mercy is always described as greater than His anger. Jesus tells us to love our enemies so that we can be perfect like our Father in Heaven (Matt 5:43-48), yet we are taught that He will hate them and burn them forever. Anyway, I started to ramble on. I do not know which (if any) denomination will teach this. Nick |
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11 | Is Universalism Scriptural | Lev 16:34 | Val | 198744 | ||
Nick, thank you for your honesty. You know I have spent many a sleepless night when someone I knew and loved died without confessing Christ as Lord. The anguish I felt was sometimes overwhelming. A wise pastor who I called gave me a word of comfort. He said, we must believe that God is righteous and just and that we are committing this one who died into the hands of a loving and just God. Although it did not comfort me to know this one may not be in heaven as the Lord had given me an opportunity to talk with him about eternity before his death. My friend said honestly he did not believe in Christ. When I warned him of the consequences of going to the place in the bible called hell, he laughed. He even called his mother and said guess what mom they said I am going to hell. His mother agreed that he was. It was within six months or so that this man committed suicide. Life is tough, is it not? Personally I can't pretend that everything is going to work out fine for those I love, but knowing that my God is righteous and just and loving gives me hope and comfort because I know He will handle everything in the best way it can be handled. One thing I have learned is that we cannot make people believe what we believe and that is ok, we can pray for them, witness of Christ and the deliverance from the second death that He has provided and leave the rest to Him. May God bless you. Val Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." |
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