Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | Morant61 | 85174 | ||
Greetings John! I must respectfully disagree my friend! The verses you cite do not grant permission to drink alcohol. They forbid a church leader from being a drunk. But, it does not necesarily follow that means that permission is granted to use some alcohol. The sermon portion that you cite can be applied to either position. For instance, I could ask, "Where is the passage that commands or grants permission to use alcohol?" Since there isn't one for social drinking, then aren't you just as guilty of 'erring reason'? ;-) Anyway, it wasn't my intention to get into a long debate about 'wine'. I simply wanted to recommend what I felt was an excellent sermon series on the subect. I have posted my views on this issue several times, so they are quite well known. I have also made it clear that I never judge anyone else on this issue either my friend. My only concern has always been the assumption that 'wine' in the Bible always refers to alcohol (which is not true) and the assumption that anyone who believes in total abstinence must be adding to Scripture or naive (which is also not true). Beyond that, my approach as a pastor has always been to simply express my position and then encourage an individual to seek God's will for his own life. Well, I have to get some work done! I'll chat with you later my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | Hank | 85200 | ||
Hello, Sober (but not Somber) Tim :-) Someone once asked me, "I suppose that you, as a Southern Baptist, see a problem with alcohol?" And I said, "No, friend, I don't see any problem whatever with alcohol. I simply leave it alone and it leaves me alone. The problem isn't with the alcohol, it's with the guy who drinks it. He can get drunk as a fiddler and do all sorts of crazy things, and he can become addicted to it. That's the problem and that's why I leave it alone." --Hank | ||||||
3 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | Morant61 | 85211 | ||
Greetings Hank! I like that response! :-) I mentioned earlier that I highly recommended John MacArthur's sermon series on, "The Spirit Filled Life". In several sermons, he lists 8 questions that someone must answer if he is going to make the case that it is okay to drink alcohol today. He called this list of questions, 'The Christian Wine List': 1) Is it the same? Since different words in the Old and New Testaments have different meanings, one must determine whether or not the alcohol of today is the same as that of the alcohol of the Bible. The obvious answer is, 'No'! Naturally fermenting wine is not as strong as the distilled beverages of today. And, there is historical evidence that many in the first century, when drinking fermented wine, usually watered it down quite heavily. 2) Is it necessary? Many have argued that they had to drink fermented wine then because they could not keep it from fermenting. Even if this were true then (and there is evidence that it isn't), it definitely isn't the case today. We have many options from which we can choose. 3) Is it the best choice? We know that priests, kings, and nazarites, were all forbidden to drink at all in the Bible. Why? Because, the alcohol could pervert their judgement. John the Baptist didn't drink at all. Is it the best choice for us to drink something that we don't have to drink when it could cause us to do evil or misguided things? 4) Is it habit forming? We are not supposed to be controlled by anything except the Spirit of God. We know that alcohol is habit forming and can lead to addiction. How much is too much? When is when? No one really knows. So, why partake at all? 5) Is it potentially destructive? Yes! How many lives have been personally destroyed because of alcohol? How many famlies have been torn apart? Every drunk who got behind the wheel of a car thought that he could handle it! Why take a chance? 6) Is it offensive to other Christians? Yes! We know from this forum that there are many views on this subject. The principle of the 'weak' and 'strong' forbids us to do anything which might cause our brothers or sisters to stumble. This would definitely qualify. 7) Will it harm my Christian testimony? Yes! Maybe not all unbelievers would be offended at a Christian drinking alcohol, but most would be. Why would we do anything which could harm our witness? 8) Are you really sure it's okay to drink? Are we? This was MacArthur's list, but I agree with it wholeheartedly. In my personal view, there simply isn't any overwhelming advantage to drinking, but there are many for not drinking. Now, as I've said several times, I would never hold anyone else to my personal view. But, obviously, I do think that it is the best course of action. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | Hank | 85221 | ||
Thanks, Tim, for posting John MacArthur's "The Christian Wine List." I know that many forum users, I among them, admire the work of "Dr. Mac." His exegetical skills are truly remarkable, and I find myself returning time and time again to his biblical fountain of knowledge for spiritual refreshment. He makes an excellent case for abstention without having to parse words or mold Scripture to fit his point of view. --Hank | ||||||
5 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | Morant61 | 85223 | ||
Greetings Hank! Even though Dr. MacArthur and I disagree on the issue of election, he is still one of my favorite preachers. I have had the opportunity to hear him in person. And, as a pastor in Ohio, I even had the opportunity to go to a pastor's prayer breakfast which he hosted in Lima, OH. It was fun. After breakfast, we all went to the sanctuary of the host church and had a Q and A time with Dr. MacArthur. The main reason I got interested in this particular subject was that my denomination had a total abstainence position and there was some discussion of weaking that offical position at our General Assembly. So, I began to do research on the issue in terms of both Scripture and practice. We were allowed to e-mail our comments and thoughts to the official committee investigating this issue. So, I e-mail mine to them. In the end, the official recommendation was very much in line with my thoughts, and we kept our offical position as it was. As a pastor, I have of course had to think about these issues. We all are in agreement that Scripture forbids drunkeness. But, as a practical matter, at what point is someone drunk? Does God go by Indiana State Law? I could not in good conscience tell someone that it is okay for them to drink but not get drunk, if I can't give them a definite answer as to what drunkness is! ;-) In the end, I believe we are much better off by abstaining period. There is no harm or danger in such a position. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | Hank | 85231 | ||
Tim, what I hear you saying is that those who don't play with fire are much less likely to get burned, to which I agree. As for John MacArthur, well I too don't go all the way with him on his election theology, but I don't think he's a true-blue five-pointer. Maybe a two and a half pointer or something like that. :-) ..... I'm glad your General Assembly saw fit to keep your church sober! --Hank | ||||||
7 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | John Reformed | 85240 | ||
Hi Hank, I think Tim's church voted to keep themselves dry rather than sober. The reason I point out the distinction is that (regardless of popular opinion) it is quite possible to drink and to remain sober as well. In fact the vast majority of people exercise prudence regarding alcohol. Because I am against man-made rules for the body of Christ, I must disagree with the church's decision. Because the Bible no where prohibits drinking per se, I believe the choice falls under the rules for christian liberty. What is the Southern Baptist position on the moderate use of alcohol? Your Friend, John |
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8 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | Hank | 85263 | ||
John, Tim's church may have voted to keep themselves dry, but how can Southern Baptists keep dry with all that immersion going on? Ain't no way! :-) ..... You ask about the Southern Baptist position on the use of alcohol. It's "don't get caught or they'll punish you by electing you as a deacon!" ...... I'm kidding, of course. I don't know that the SBC has any official position on this, John. I don't personally know any Southern Baptists who drink (unless they are doing it in the closet), but I'm reasonably certain some do. ..... You make two interesting statements back to back: that it is quite possible to drink and remain sober and that the vast majority of drinkers exercise prudence regarding alcohol. As to the first statement, my experiences back in my drinking days didn't bear this out. As to the second statement, my experiences back in my drinking days didn't bear this out either. You know what I wonder, John? I wonder, if the fire were removed from the fire-water, the pepper from the sauce, the sting from the stinger, the gin from the tonic -- in other words, if the alcohol were removed from the beer, wine and booze, how many "social drinkers" would notice it? I think all of them would, don't you. And if it weren't for the "kick" I believe most social drinkers wouldn't bother with "social drinking" or go to the trouble of attending cocktail parties that are usually so boring that they drive a fellow to drink. --Hank | ||||||
9 | Don't understand Jesus's view on alcohol | Prov 20:1 | John Reformed | 85354 | ||
Dear Hank, Your arguements against the cosumption of alcohol are based on 1. personal experience and 2. On what you term as a "kick". Regarding your first point (and I speak from the experience of my own sordid past) "Birds of a feather, flock together. Really Hank, I had no use for those, who after one or two beers, began to look at the clock and decide it was time to get home to the wife! I looked upon men such as these with suspicion and bewilderment. It was'nt until God changed my heart and gave it new desires that I began to understand these folks. They enjoyed their drink or two but did not like the feeling that too much wine results in. A feeling of losing control. Your second point pre-supposes that everyone who drinks does so to experience the kick of losing control. This is not so. There is a distinct difference between a mildly pleasent sensation and getting potted. Should we also forbid christians from long distance races because of the euphoria that runners experience at a certain point during their run? Of course not. The very idea is absurd. Pleasent feelings are not in themselves sinful! Of course any material gift of God may be abused. Food, drink, sex, health, money, in my case good looks (just kidding). You name it and we can mess it up. What else should the church ban because it may lead to sinful abuse? Dancing, make-up, movies, books, junk food, card playing, secular music, etc. etc. etc. What does the Bible say? 1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. When I partake in a glass of wine I do so with a good conscience, knowing that it is a gift of God that I must not abuse. I will not be matered by wine or anything else if in the enjoyment of it I glorify God by my prudent use of His blessing. nough' said, John the "wine bibber" |
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