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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does anyone have a good way to explain t | Bible general Archive 1 | Truthfinder | 87907 | ||
Hmmmmm, And the footnote in those translations say possessed means "formed". Truthfinder |
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2 | Does anyone have a good way to explain t | Bible general Archive 1 | Truthfinder | 87910 | ||
Proverbs 8:22 Persons who accept only the Hebrew Scriptures or who do not believe in Jesus Christ often explain Proverbs 8:22-31 as applying to Wisdom personified only in some figurative way. That application of the verses, however, does not agree with what is known about God. Furthermore, accepting the sound view that the entire Bible, including Proverbs, is inspired, a person can see that the description of “Wisdom” here in Proverbs matches what is said elsewhere in the Bible about the Son of God. We read: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. . . . Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains . . . When he prepared the heavens I was there; . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, . . . and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”—Prov. 8:22-31. Jewish commentators, objecting to any application of this passage to Jesus as the Messiah, have usually held that this is merely a literary personification of wisdom. Thus, W. Gunther Plaut, in his work Book of Proverbs—A Commentary, says that these verses apply to Wisdom “personified only in a figurative way.” This passage, however, cannot be speaking merely about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract. Why not? Because the “Wisdom” that is here depicted was “created” or “produced” (Hebrew, qa·nah´) as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. The Scriptures show that Jehovah God himself has always existed. (Ps. 90:2; 1 Tim. 1:17) Since he is eternal and he has always been wise, then his wisdom has always existed; it never was created or produced; it was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” (Job 9:2, 4; 12:9, 13; 28:20, 23; Rom. 11:33-36) Wisdom does not exist apart from a personality capable of possessing and reflecting it. Consequently, this “Wisdom” must be a personification picturing someone who was created “as the beginning of [God’s] way.” The Christian Greek Scriptures aid a person to understand to whom this passage evidently refers. They repeatedly testify to the fact that the Messiah had a prehuman existence as the Son of God in heaven with Jehovah. (John 17:5; 6:62) In that prehuman existence he worked with Jehovah in creating all other things. John 1:3 says about this one: “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”—Compare Colossians 1:15, 16. It is understandable that the Son of God could be depicted as created “Wisdom.” Through him Jehovah’s wise purpose, including the role of the Messiah whom the Jews were long awaiting, was made manifest. The apostle Paul said about Jesus: “Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” (Col. 2:3) While King Solomon was renowned for his God-given wisdom, Jesus was “something more than Solomon.” (1 Ki. 4:30-34; Matt. 12:42) Those who accepted Jesus Christ and had faith in him realized that he was “the power of God and the wisdom of God.”—1 Cor. 1:24, 30. Accordingly, what we know about our eternally wise God and the information in the Christian Greek Scriptures about Jesus combine to make clear the appropriateness of applying Proverbs 8:22-31 to the Son of God who became the Messiah. That passage remarkably fits the origin and activities of that one whose fondness for mankind even led to his dying as a ransom sacrifice.—1 Tim. 2:5, 6; John 3:16. In the past, commentators and translators who held to the Trinity doctrine argued that qa·nah´ should here be rendered “possessed.” Qa·nah´ can convey the sense of either “acquire (possess)” or “produce.” (Gen. 4:1; Deut. 32:6; Ps. 139:13; Neh. 5:16) But scholars acknowledge that the context here points to the rendering “produced” or “created,” since verses 24 and 25 speak of Wisdom as being “brought forth as with labor pains.” This rendering is borne out by the Greek Septuagint, the Syriac Peshitta Version and the Targums. So now even translations by trinitarians, such as the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, use the rendering “produced” or “created.” Truthfinder |
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3 | Does anyone have a good way to explain t | Bible general Archive 1 | Pastor Glenn | 88161 | ||
Truthfinder, Even "if" the word "created" were accepted instead of "possesed", this implies the God had no wisdom at some point before creating it. God has not changed. 22"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. 27When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;[2] And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. You said: "But scholars acknowledge that the context here points to the rendering “produced” or “created,” since verses 24 and 25 speak of Wisdom as being “brought forth as with labor pains.”" 25Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; "brought forth" is as in brought to the front. God used His "wisdom" and "understanding": Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; Are you next going to tell us that "understanding" was also a created being? Or what about "knowledge", who is he??? Pastor Glenn |
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4 | Does anyone have a good way to explain t | Bible general Archive 1 | Truthfinder | 88179 | ||
Hi Pastor Glenn, Sorry I don't understand your question. But since wisdom as always existed, then certainly knowledge along with understanding have always existed. Yet, it is quite conclusive that Revelation 3:14 and Col 3:15 along with Proverb 8:22 that this one was indeed the "son" of God, the only begotten son" John 1:14 created by God, the "only-begotten god" (John 1:18)who has explained the Almighty God,(his Father). Notice please, 1 Cor 8:5, "For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." Truthfinder |
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5 | Does anyone have a good way to explain t | Bible general Archive 1 | Pastor Glenn | 88231 | ||
Truthfinder, The scriptures that you give show the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. Rev 3 14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[6] write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: We see this as referring to Jesus, after His ressurection, as the firstborn of a new spiritual order of beings. He is the second Adam in the sence that all that have faith in Him can become part of God's family. Col 1 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Can't you see why He must be God? Not merely "a god"? All scripture pointed to Him to save all that accept Him throughout time. Abraham saw Him. Job saw Him. Jacob wrestled with Him. The mercy seat in the Ark of the covenant represented Him. No one can stand in for God like that. He must "be" God. John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[6] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. 1 Cor 8 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. Jesus Christ is not just a "junior partner" to God. A junior partner could not be allowed to stand in for salvation of all men for all time. Truthfinder, throw that NWT away and read Hebrews 11-12 again. Read John chapter 1 again and Hebrews chapter 1 again. A junior partner would have had to say "and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto the father". But instead He said: Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Only God can say that. Pastor Glenn |
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6 | Does anyone have a good way to explain t | Bible general Archive 1 | Truthfinder | 88305 | ||
Hi Pastor Glenn, You wrote: ...... ........ .......The scriptures that you give show the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ........ When you say "deity" of the Lord Jesus Christ do you mean Jesus is a mighty spirit being that has been given all authority in the universe and was maker of both the angels in heaven and material universe eons of time ago? Well certainly, I totally agree. But if you mean that our Lord Jesus is the God that Jesus told Satan at Mat. 4:10 you must render sacred service that I will have to agree with Jesus and not you. Yes, the deity of Christ must be relative, otherwise the ransome sacrifice is nulified, Jesus really is not God's "only-begotten son", and each time Jesus called his Father "God" was meaningless. Can you imagine the Father ever saying, "My God" in reference to his son? I can't and don't think any reasonable person would. Yet Jesus does numerous times. Thus Rev. 3:14 tells us that after His resurection the "Beginning of the creation of God", means Jesus was the beginning, the very first creation of his Father eons of time ago. ........Rev 3 14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[6] write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: We see this as referring to Jesus, after His ressurection, as the firstborn of a new spiritual order of beings. He is the second Adam in the sence that all that have faith in Him can become part of God's family......... ........Col 1 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Can't you see why He must be God? Not merely "a god"? All scripture pointed to Him to save all that accept Him throughout time......... Col. 1:15 simply says that "He (Jesus) is the image (not God himself) of the invisible God, the firstborn (first not second born son of God) (angels are sons on God but not his firstborn) and verst 16 For by Him (Jesus) all things were created (the Father created all the other sons in heaven and material universe by using Jesus, he was his "masterworker") and verse 17 tells us that Jesus was the firstborn from the dead (he was the first to be resurrected to heaven having died a human). Certainly Jesus being a human proved faithful and made the ransome sacrifice valid. If he had failed then God would have had to made other arrangements for mankind. But if he had been Almighty God himself then where is the love of offering himself on behalf of mankind. No he offered his beloved "son" as a ransom for "all". ........Abraham saw Him. Job saw Him. Jacob wrestled with Him. The mercy seat in the Ark of the covenant represented Him. No one can stand in for God like that. He must "be" God......... Pastor Glenn, please explain this verse then. John 1:18, "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him." You say mere man as actually seen God Almighty? And who is the "only-begotten god" ? Truthfinder |
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7 | Does anyone have a good way to explain t | Bible general Archive 1 | Pastor Glenn | 88403 | ||
Truthfinder, “.......The scriptures that you give show the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ........ When you say "deity" of the Lord Jesus Christ do you mean Jesus is a mighty spirit being that has been given all authority in the universe and was maker of both the angels in heaven and material universe eons of time ago? Well certainly, I totally agree. “ No, He was not “given” all authority, He already had it throughout eternity. He was not created. You confuse scripture that refers to His incarnation or resurrection with His pre-incarnate existence. The Word laid aside His power for the incarnation. “But if you mean that our Lord Jesus is the God that Jesus told Satan at Mat. 4:10 you must render sacred service that I will have to agree with Jesus and not you. “ 10Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you,[4] Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'[Deuteronomy 6:13 You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name. ] “Yes, the deity of Christ must be relative, otherwise the ransom sacrifice is nullified, Jesus really is not God's "only-begotten son", and each time Jesus called his Father "God" was meaningless. Can you imagine the Father ever saying, "My God" in reference to his son? I can't and don't think any reasonable person would. “ Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: "The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."'[12:36 Psalm 110:1] “…But if he had been Almighty God himself then where is the love of offering himself on behalf of mankind. No he offered his beloved "son" as a ransom for "all". “ “No greater dishonor can be done to our heavenly Father than to take his beloved name out of his Holy Book as most "modern" translations have done so as to mislead its readers to believing that He and His Son are one and the same. Don't you get it? That was the reason Jehovah was originally in his Holy Word. If he didn't want it in there why did he put it there 7,000 times. No one on this forum has answered that question since I periodically ask it over the past 6 months. Why do so many people who call themselves "Christian" even dispise God's name Jehovah? Many even say that Jehovah isn't his name because we don't know how it was pronounced in Hebrew! What a copout. They readily use all the other names in their English for, including Jesus! So, you see Pastor Glenn, I believe the Word of God and I believe it when it says Jehovah is the Almighty God and his Son is not Almighty God but indeed his Son. Truthfinder” OK Truthfinder, I’ll accept “Jehovah” as God’s name. Let’s also keep the NWT. I believe in the Trinity because the Bible teaches the doctrine. It does so not by using the specific word "Trinity," but by teaching the three pillars that make up the doctrine: First, that there is only one true God, Jehovah, Creator of all things. Surely you agree with me there. Next, that there are three divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I realize you do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person, but you do agree that the Father and the Son are not the same person, correct? Finally, the third pillar, the point on which we are in direct disagreement, is the Bible’s teaching of the full equality of these divine persons. This would include the deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. It is important not to misunderstand me. We are not asserting that there are three “persons” that are one person, nor that there are three “beings” that are one being. We are differentiating between the terms “being” and “person“. All things have being, but only God, humans, and angels are personal. I as a human being am one person, Eugene Glenn. My “being” makes me human, my personality differentiates me from all other human beings. Since my “being” is finite and limited, only one “person” can properly subsist in it, namely, me. But since God’s “being” is infinite and unlimited, it can be, and is, shared by three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Can I illustrate this from Scripture? Since you believe the Trinity is a false doctrine derived from Greek philosophy, you probably feel that I won’t be able to support my position using the bible. (continued on next post...) Pastor Glenn |
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