Results 1 - 8 of 8
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 60130 | ||
John I sincerely do not want to replow the same ground again but yes God says here he offers salvation to all. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. I know you say the “all” means all that are elected but I can not accept that. Again your right we were all condemned by sin. But God so love the world, not just the elect, that He sent his only begotten son that whosoever, not just the chosen, believes in Him would have eternal life. I know you will claim the “all” means all that are chosen but the word seems to imply all not just the chosen. Howeve I think the evidence is overpowering Jesus did in fact die for all. There are those that reject that and I beleive God gave them the right/freewill to do so. But I beleive Jesus did die for ALL not just the chosen. Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 2 Cor. 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 1 Tim. 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; I have two questions for you. Why is so important to you that only the elect be saved, what difference would it make in your theology if all were given an opportunity for salvation but also the right to accept or reject it? That election, predestined, and such simply meant God knew from creation who would reject Christ. Second question a young boy not “chosen” hears about hell and develops a mortal fear of going there, would a loving God never give him a means to escape? Oh my drag the plow out her we go!! EdB |
||||||
2 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 60226 | ||
Part 2 Q2."what difference would it make in your theology if all were given an opportunity for salvation but also the right to accept or reject it?" Reformed theology teahes that the gospel should be proclaimed to every person. But that only the elect will recieve it. It is referred to as the "general" or "outward" call. Here again , only the elect will repond positively. The reason I believe this to be God's truth is because Jesus taught it. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." You wrote: "That election, predestined, and such simply meant God knew from creation who would reject Christ." I covered election above. Predestination - This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events.(Easton's Bible Dictionary) Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, The Strongs Concordance defines predestine as. 1) to predetermine, decide beforehand 2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity 3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand So, as you can see Ed, it is impossible (as long as words mean something) for me to accept election or foreknew or predestine as anything other than the plain reading of the text indicates them to be. You Wrote:" I know you say the “all” means all that are elected but I can not accept that." Let me choose just one verse that you cited containing the word "all" that clearly cannot mean every single member of humanity. 2 Cor. 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. "For the love of Christ controls us,". Paul is speaking to the believers in Corinth, so the object of the verb "controls" is "us". Therefore, taking into consideration the context, "all" refers to all of us. This is simple grammar. It is obvious that the phrase "therefore all died" applies only to those who died in Christ. Can it possibly mean" that therefore all of humanity died"? No. For only believers have died to their old selves and are reborn in Christ. I would be happy to discuss any one of the verses you listed if you wish. "Second question a young boy not “chosen” hears about hell and develops a mortal fear of going there, would a loving God never give him a means to escape? " Fear does not save anyone. As you know, we are saved by faith alone as is taught in ephesians 4:8,9. But your arguement presumes that this boy fears hell and also desires salvation. If He flees to Christ he will be saved for "all (and this means any and every one) who comes to Jesus, He will not cast out. Now if the boy fears hell but continus in sin and rebellion he will be condemned. The difference betwen those who come to Christ and those who will not is God's grace. For Jesus also said that no one can come to Him unless The Father draws them. You may say that the Father draws everyone, but that is not true, for all that He draws He sends to His Son and all that He sends are saved and raised up on the last day! See John 6. The doctrine of election when ffirst tasted is a bitter pill for many. However, as I myself have found, the more I wrestle with it and learn to bow before God's truth the sweeter it becomes. It does not matter one iota whether I like or dislike, agree or disagree, understand or remain puzzled about any jot or tittle in God's word. But I must believe it! John |
||||||
3 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 60232 | ||
John I knew better than to include 2 Cor 5:14-15, your right Paul here is talking to those that are saved. :-) In my boy example you said if he comes to Jesus he will be accepted, but he can't because he was not part of the elect therefore can not come according to you. Again according to you he has to live in fear of Hell but there is no salvation available to him. I think we both agree nobody can come to God unless God gives them the spiritual enlightenment to know they need God and salvation. Where we disagree, is that I believe a person can reject that truth. I also believe God gives each and everyone that glimpse into to spiritual reality at least once in each person’s life. If everyone is not given a chance then John 3;16 is not true Jesus didn't died for the world he only died for the elect. That is false Jesus died for the world (everyone) not just a chosen group. In your last comment you used the verse that said the potter can do what he wants with the pot. Your right that speaks directly to the sovereignty of God, it is not talking about salvation, it is talking about such things as talents and handicaps. God give talents and allows handicaps as he see fit. This passage has nothing to do with salvation. EdB |
||||||
4 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 60241 | ||
Ed, "Where we disagree, is that I believe a person can reject that truth. I also believe God gives each and everyone that glimpse into to spiritual reality at least once in each person’s life." That is a very nice sentiment. However you must back it up with scripture or it is merely human sentimentality. "In your last comment you used the verse that said the potter can do what he wants with the pot. Your right that speaks directly to the sovereignty of God, it is not talking about salvation, it is talking about such things as talents and handicaps. God give talents and allows handicaps as he see fit. This passage has nothing to do with salvation." Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. Sounds like salvation to me. How do you see handicaps and talents in this passage? John |
||||||
5 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | Sir Pent | 60246 | ||
Suggestion to switch threads .................... Dear John and EdB, In your last post John you asked for scriptural support for EdB's belief that it is possible for a human to reject God's truth. I would suggest that Matthew 23:37 is a good example. God sent His truth through prophets, and desired for the people to be saved, but they rejected and killed them instead. ............................................................ I would also llke to suggest that since this branch of this thread is not really on the topic of the Left Behind books, and since there is a relatively empty thread on the verse Matthew 23:37, that you both continue this discussion there instead. Just an idea :) |
||||||
6 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 60257 | ||
Sir Pent, John and other forum members. Again I must apologize. First I allowed my self to take a thread on a wild goose chase on subjects it does not pertain too. Second allowing myself to get involved in discussion that hasn’t been able to be satisfactorily resolved in over 400 years. Third to get involved worrying about something I have absolutely no control over. How the miracle of salvation happens is beyond me I admit it. I just know salvation is real, It happened to me, praise God! And now I’m to be salt and light to this dark world. John I believe we can one up each other with supporting scripture until the cows come home. I don’t think you will change my mine and I don’t think I will change yours. Let us put the plow back in the barn, the soil has been plowed and the ground is fertile, let’s us plant seeds of hope in others lives. EdB |
||||||
7 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 60260 | ||
Dear Ed, Believe me when I say that my intenton was not to get one up on you or anyone else. I am passionate about what I believe and perhaps overly zealous in my replies, but my motivation is love for the brethren. I've learned much since coming to this forum and I hope my earlier rants have been tempored somewhat (by the grace of God) and the example of those wiser than I. If I am wrong let me know. John |
||||||
8 | LEFT BEHIND? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 60282 | ||
John What I meant was we can go tit for tat. Or for every verse you supply I supply a contradictory verse. I believe from what I have read there are an equal number scriptures supporting opposing views. Which explains why the debate rages even after 400years. There are very very learned men on both sides of this fence. As I said the miracle of salvation astonishes me and I will be the first to declare I can not explain it. However, my understanding of God and John 3:16 leads me to believe Jesus died for every man, women and child. I do not know the answer to the why all do not believe. But nothing in the Bible convinces me it is because God choose to exclude some With that I put away the plow and I will not drag it out again. EdB |
||||||