Results 1 - 9 of 9
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228719 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! 1) When did I challenge your knowledge of Greek? In my very first post on this topic, I explicitly stated that some view Rom. 7:14-25 as an historical present and some don't. I never said you were 'wrong' to hold to your view. I simply presented the evidence for why I hold mine. Please provide me with the quote where I accused you of falsely using Greek. 2) Aorist: Like the present tense, there are a wide variety of uses for the Aorist: inceptive, gnomic, ect... At it's core, the aorist tense is 'timeless', so I'm not sure if you are referring to that or to the gnomic aorist. The second aorist is a matter of form, not function, so I'm not sure what you mean on it. But, my friend, when it is appropriate, I will use my knowledge of Greek. I am no A. T. Robertson, but I spent too many years studying Greek simply to never refer to it again. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | biblicalman | 228731 | ||
Perhaps in view of what has been said on this forum we should consider certain facts about the use of Greek in the New Testament The so-called 'historic present' is to my knowledge only used in the Gospels. I have discovered no instance where it is used by Paul or in theological narratives. Examples of its rare use in the Gospels are where it is used to make the historical descriptive narrative vivid (we do the same in English). For example: Matthew 3.1 'In those days comes John --.' John 1.29 'On the next day He sees John and says --.' Mark 11.27; 12.9 'They come to Him --.' (Matthew has 'they came'. In the New Testament its usage is therefore strictly limited. It cannot be taken as a general rule that a present can be used as a past tense. It is limited to historical descriptive narrative. With regard to the aorist it is used as a present in the following examples: 'My beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased (aorist)' 'If you love me keep (aorist) my commandments.' 'Praise (aorist) the Lord all the nations and let all the peoples sing praises (aorist) to Him' (Romans 15.11). 'Awake (aorist) to righteousness and sin not' (1 Cor 15.34). 'Draw out (aorist) the water and bear (present) to the governor of the feast' (John 2.8) 'Take (aorist) these things hence -- (john 2.16) These are clear examples and make plain that the aorist can be used of the present, and can be used of continual action. Best wishes to all. I hope this is helpful |
||||||
3 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | biblicalman | 228732 | ||
In the past the following have been mooted as contradictions using Greek in the normal way. 1) Slaves or not: Rom 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. There is in fact no contradiction here. The former verse states the ideal position to which the Christian has been raised. He has been set free from sin and become a slave to righteousness (because he is in Christ). That is his status. It is a privileged status, but sadly one from which we often fall short, even if unconsciously. Who among us can say that he 'always does good, and sins not?' The weakness of the flesh regularly results in our failing to do the good that we should do perfectly all the time. Only Jesus achieved this standard. Indeed we are often not sure of what good we should do. Who among us continually and perfectly continues do to others what we would have them do to us?' The standard is huge in its implications. It is something at which we aim, not something that we can possibly achieve, for its demands are endless. Paul, knowing this, said, 'We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.' What did he mean by this vivid description? He was indicating that the Law in order to be fulfilled needed a truly spiritual response. It was in the realm of the Spirit. In contrast there is that within us which he calls 'indwelling sin' which drags us down from being spiritual. It is something that has to be constantly overcome through the power of the Spirit (compare Galatians 5.16-24). From the commencement of our lives we have been 'sold under sin'. That is sin has been our master. And when we become Christians that sin still indwells us making its claim to be our master. But because Christ died for us on the cross and we have been united with Him in His body, we have in Him died to sin. That does not mean that sin has died. It means that we are to see ourselves as having died. We are to 'reckon on it' (Romans 6.11) We are to reckon on the fact that we are slaves to righteousness. Thus when sin within us raises its head we say, 'yes as we are in ourselves we are sold under sin, but as we are as those who have been united with Christ we are sold under righteousness'. We are servants of righteousness. There is no contradiction in that. 2) To sin or not to sin: Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Both these statements are true for all of us at the present. We are not to let sin reign in us so that we obey its evil desires. Sin dwells within us, but we are not to let it reign. We are to say to it, 'In Christ I have died to you. In myself I am your slave and have been from birth. But in Christ I have died. So positionally I am no longer your slave. For I am dead, Of course I am not really dead. I am still the identical person to th one that I was. But because I have been united with Christ my spiritual position has changed so that I am 'dead to sin but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord'. This is my new status. This is how I am to see myself (Rom 6.11), so that when the sin that dwells in me makes demands I reply, 'in Christ I am dead to you'. Thus I can now call on the Spirit's power to enable me to overcome sin. But if we look at our lives as they are in themselves we have to admit, 'I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.' Good lives in me because Christ lives in me,but as I am in myself nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. Left to myself I have the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out. Let me but take my eyes off Christ and cease to reckon on myself as dead to sin, and then sin will take over. In order to live a holy life I am wholly dependent on Christ and His risen power. I am wholly dependent on the Spirit. Without Him reigning in me sin will again take over the reins. So these verses are not contradictory. They are complementary. They describe on the one hand what I am in Christ, and what on the other hand I am when I cease to reckon on myself as dead to sin. In the latter case sin once again exerts its right. |
||||||
4 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228734 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! While we may not agree on every point, I commend you for an excellent and well thought out post. Allow me to highlight what we do agree on. You wrote: "In order to live a holy life I am wholly dependent on Christ and His risen power. I am wholly dependent on the Spirit. Without Him reigning in me sin will again take over the reins. " I have stated over and over again, that living without sin is only possible as long as we are led by the Spirit. So, we agree that it is possible for Christians to sin, if they cease to be led by the Spirit of God. Where we disagree is concerning the present nature of a Christian. 1) Slaves or not: You seem to take the position that believers have to natures. Allow me to ask a question. What determines which nature we will follow? 2) To sin or not to sin: Do we just reckon ourselves as dead to sin, or are we really dead to sin? We both agree that a believer can sin. It just appears that we disagree concerning the nature or natures of a believer. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
5 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | biblicalman | 228737 | ||
Hi Tim, You ask : 1) Slaves or not: You seem to take the position that believers have two natures. Allow me to ask a question. What determines which nature we will follow? My reply: No I think we have one sinful nature. I usually avoid the term nature as everything depende upon the definition, and few can even come close to defining it. I used the term sinful nature because it was in the verse I was dealing with. We have, of course, a human nature tainted by sin. Thus it is a sinful nature. But what determines our actions is a mix of body, soul and spirit. It is the 'I' who am responsible for what I do, whether I follow the sin that dwells within me (Romans 7.20), in some cases spoken of as 'the flesh' (Galatians 5.16 ff.), or whether I follow my renewed mind ((Romans 7.22, 23 25) and spirit, with the aid of the Holy Spirit. You ask: 2) To sin or not to sin: Do we just reckon ourselves as dead to sin, or are we really dead to sin? My reply: That is a slightly loaded question. I do not believe either. In Christ we are dead to sin, for when He died we, who have been made one body in Him, died also. But my body did not die. It is typing this answer. And my body is indwelt by the tyrant sin. So no, I as I am in myself am not dead to sin. As I am in Christ, however, I am dead to sin. Thus I have to reckon on myself as dead to sin because I died in Christ's body. But we must not stop there for I also rose with Christ. Thus I have within me the risen Christ and the Holy Sprit (and also the Father), and they have wrought within so that I am a 'new creature'. My spirit has been renewed. No longer am I totally enslaved by sin. The Triune God at work within me provides the means and power by which I can defeat the tyrant sin which dwells within me, by being active through my spirit and renewed mind. But my flesh, the taint of sin within my body, still struggles within me to gain the mastery. Let me ask a question in return. If someone is really dead to sin how can they ever sin again? That would mean that they were not really dead to sin. Note that I do not say you. I do not know what you believe on that issue. Best wishes. |
||||||
6 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228743 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! A couple of questions had sprung to mind, but in fairness, I'll address your question first. In my response, I'm not reflecting on your position but simply trying to articulate how I came to my position. First of all, I always try to start with the clear statements of Scripture, not the less clear, or even my own experience. So, I begin with Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? This is a clear statement. In fact, our death to sin is compared and contrasted with Christ's death on the cross. When, I get to Rom. 8:11, I don't take 'reckon' or 'consider' as simply pretending that we are dead, but as a logical recognition of what Christ has done for us. So, to answer your question. I think that we all would agree that Adam and Eve were not created with a sin nature, nor were they slaves to sin in any sense of the word. Yet, they sinned. So, I would argue that someone who is no longer a slave to sin can still choose to sin. This addresses two important truths in Scriptures. One, that we truly are dead to sin. Two, that we can still sin. Well, I have to get ready for work. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
7 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | biblicalman | 228744 | ||
Hi Tim You say: First of all, I always try to start with the clear statements of Scripture, not the less clear, or even my own experience. So, I begin with Rom 6:2 'By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?' This is a clear statement. In fact, our death to sin is compared and contrasted with Christ's death on the cross. My reply: But I do not see this as 'a clear statement'. It immediately raises the question, how have I died to sin? What is certainly true is that it does not mean that we do not sin, for our whole lives are involved in sin. To sin is to come short of the glory of God, and 2 Cor 3.18 makes clear that our progress towards the glory of God is a continuous one. Thus we are all 'sinning' by coming short of it. We are told to love God with ALL our heart, soul, mind and strength, but we all fall short of that in our daily lives. It is in our sinful state impossible of achievement. Thus we are all continually coming short of Christlikeness, for He did love God with heart, sould, mind and strength. Consider how Jesus would rise 'a great while before day' in order to be in communion with His Father because He loved Him so. But He did not expect it of His disciples. He was fully aware that they still came far short of loving the Father as He did. Thus we, like the disciples, are all sinning. Do you not think that they should ALL have been arising a great while before day? Thus we must ask, what does it mean to die to sin? And the answer lies in both what has been said before, (that we have 'died to sin' because Christ died for our sins, and we died in Him) and in what he subsequently says, that we are 'drenched into His death', that we are 'united with Him in His death'. We have been made one body with Him (1 Cor 12.12-13). In consequence His death was our death. And sin can therefore no longer condemn us because in Him we have died and paid the penalty of sin. That is real, not pretence. But it does not mean that sin within us is therefore dead. We are not restored to the innocence of Adam. Our death is in no way 'contrasted' with Christ's death, nor is it 'compared' with it. Christ's death IS our death. It is because He died that we can consider (not pretend) that we have died to sin. Paul's logic is based on what has caused our justification, what has caused our being accounted as righteous in Christ. But if there is one thing that is abundantly clear, we are all still in a state of sin (that is, are still continuaslly sinning) which is why we come short of the glory of God, and is why we do not all the time love God as we should. It was because Paul knew that many of his listeners would be saying, 'but my experience is not like that. I am not dead to sin. I am very conscious of sin, Does that mean that I am not a Christian', that Paul called on his own experience in Rom 7.14-25 so as to make clear to them that all Christians, even Paul, still had sin dwelling within them. He did not articulate what those sins were because he wanted his words to apply to the condition of each of his hearers. He wanted them to be assured that, even though they might still be struggling against sin, it did not mean that they were not Christians. And he wanted them to know that there was also a way by which they could overcome their known sins through the activity of the Spirit of Christ. But be assured that all of us without exception, would, if God suddenly made Himself vividly known to us, fall on our faces in despair at our sinfulness (Job 42.5-6; Isaiah 6.5). That is one thing that happens in time of revival, a facing up to sin as never before. Indeed it would be unbearable were it not for the fact that Christ having died for us, and we having died in Him, we have assurance of forgiveness and being accounted as righteous, even though we are not. You say: When, I get to Rom. 8:11, I don't take 'reckon' or 'consider' as simply pretending that we are dead, but as a logical recognition of what Christ has done for us. My reply: Nor do any of us. We reckon on it as a fact that we are dead to sin and alive to God THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. But we do not reckon on the fact that sin is dead. We must be constantly alert to it. Best wishes |
||||||
8 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228745 | ||
Greetings Biblicalman! I have been doing a lot of reading on this topic, and I'm trying to picture it in some way that would make it as easy as possible to understand. How is this for a start? There are three distinct situations that a human being can find themselves in (with the focus on the believer primarily). 1) Unregenerate 2) Regenerate 3) Glorified The first and third states are basically perfect states in that as unregenerate beings we cannot please God, while as glorified beings we cannot displease God. The second state is a conjunction of the "already/not yet" that we struggle with as Christians. We are new creations as a regenerate person. We are not the same as before. We have been set free from the slavery to sin, yet we can still choose to sin. This is where I believe the 'dead to sin' comes into play. We really are dead to sin in that it's dominion over us is broken. Yet, we still live in a human body that exists in a fallen world. As long as we walk in the Spirit, we will not sin. But, the moment we get our eyes off of Christ, we begin to act like the world again. These are just some initial thoughts as I work through these passages. Have a great day! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
9 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | DocTrinsograce | 228746 | ||
Dear Pastor Tim, Your post was one of the more cogent ways I have heard this teaching expressed. I think, however, that it is not so much that the glorified believer "cannot displease God" but rather, in full restoration, he will not displease God. Obedience is the purest form of love. Nonetheless, the assertion "As long as we walk in the Spirit, we will not sin." Still requires a definition of sin. Even using Wesley's narrow definition -- i.e., a willful departure from the law of God -- is problematic. Take the Great and First Commandment: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (Matthew 22:37b). If you just stop with that one commandment, have you ever known someone whose entire being was driven solely by the love of the Lord? Our Lord Jesus Christ certainly did. Who else has simply lived that single commandment perfectly? Consequently, I think we will continue to fail to see completely eye-to-eye on whether the pursuit of holiness can become a walk of holiness this side of the glory. In Him, Doc |
||||||