Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228689 | ||
Greetings Edb! If I am following you correctly, you are asking do we have one or two natures as Christians. Allow me to re-post a couple of posts that I wrote awhile back that deal with this issue. _______________ There are three passages, all by Paul, that use the phrase 'old man': Rom. 6:6, Col. 3:9, and Eph. 4:22. Rom. 6:6 - “knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;” Col. 3:9 - “Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,” Eph. 4:22 - “that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,” What happens to the 'old man' in a believer? Anthony Hoekema writes (in Five Views of Sanctification by Zondervan Publishing House, 1987): “On the question of the relation between these two selves, Reformed theologians differ. Most of them, particularly those who taught and wrote some years ago, hold that the old self and the new self are distinguishable aspects of the believer. Before conversion believers have an old self; at the time of conversion, however, they put on the new self – but without totally losing the old self. The Christian, on this view, is understood to be partly a new self and partly an old self – something like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. At times the old self is in control, but at other times the new self is in the saddle; the struggle of life, according to this view, is the struggle between these aspects of the believer's being.” (pg. 78). Does Scripture support the notion that believers have two natures at the same time? To answer this question, let us consider several points: What is the 'old man'?, and what does Scripture says about the 'old man'? 1) What is the old man? There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that the 'old man' is our sin nature. Again, Hoekema writes: “What does Paul mean here by the 'old self'? Murray suggests that this expression designates 'the person in his unity as dominated by the flesh and sin.' In other words, Paul is here talking about a totality: the total person enslaved by sin,' what we all are by nature. That 'person enslaved by sin,' he is saying, was crucified with Christ. When Christ died on the cross, He dealt a deathblow to the old self we once were. Given the meaning of 'crucified,' Romans 6:6 states with unmistakable clarity that we are no longer the old selves we once were.” (pg. 79). This is an important point. There is nothing to indicate in any of the three verses dealing with the 'old man' that we, as Christians, are both 'old man' and 'new man' at the same time. In the first place, Rom. 6:6 tells us that the 'old man' has been crucified with Christ. The result of crucifixion is death. Yet, according to the traditional reformed view, the 'old nature' is still alive and kicking. Here is how one proponent (Herman Bavanick) of this view describes the relationship between the 'old man' and the 'new man' (as quoted by Hoekema): “The struggle (in the Christian life)...is between the inner man of the heart, which has been created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness, and the old man who, though driven out of the center, still wants to maintain his existence, and who fights all the more fiercely the more territory he loses...This is the struggle between two people in the same person...In every deliberation and deed of the believer, therefore, good and evil are as it were mingled together;...in all his thoughts and actions something of the old and something of the new man is present.” (pg. 78). Notice how far short this description falls from what Scripture actually says. Scripture doesn't say that the 'old man' has been 'driven out of the center', or that the 'old man' is fighting fiercely as he loses more territory. It says that he has been crucified. I will address the second question in my next post! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228691 | ||
Part III Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; (20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions (21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yet, Christians are told: Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. What boggles my mind is that many commentaries (not all), argue that the sin nature is still alive even though it has been crucified. Yet, Paul makes it abundantly clear what he means. Consider the following: Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, Vincent says of this verse: "The fleshly circumcision removed only a portion of the body. In spiritual circumcision, through Christ, the whole corrupt, carnal nature is put away like a garment which is taken off and laid aside." So, Scripture is clear that the power of the sinful nature has been destroyed, but apparently we can empower it again by choosing to make our selves slaves to it. Thus, Scripture says: Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 13:14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 1Pe 1:14-15 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. (15) But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; My conclusion can only be that it is possible to sin or not to sin as a Christian. We can choose to live according to the Spirit or according to the flesh. But, we are commanded to live according to the Spirit. I hope these posts answer your question my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228696 | ||
1 John tells us there is lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life. We see Satan using these three in the garden to tempt Eve. Genesis 3:6 (NKJV) 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. She didn't have a sin nature until after she ate and yet she moved in the big three. Now when a person is saved they still retain the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye and pride of life. They may be able to contain those but they are still present in our earthly bodies. It isn't until we get our incorruptable bodies that the big three is no longer present. Can we live in sinless perfection, I'm not sure but I don't think so because. I'm sure that each step we take that takes us closer to the holiness of God the more we are able to see our imperfections and things we need to deal with in our lives. I can understand that sinless perfection should be the goal of every Christian but since our bodies still have the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye and the pride of life within it we are going to stumble. Perhaps not in ways we now think of as sin but in ways we never considered before because we were so busy dealing with the things we knew to be sin. I think all too often in church we cite Paul and I don't think even Peter fully understood Paul at times. At least not without a lot of thought and prayer. What is see in Paul and also in Peter is they were in constant struggle to walk in Jesus' footsteps and both felt they missed stepped at times. |
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