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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228689 | ||
Greetings Edb! If I am following you correctly, you are asking do we have one or two natures as Christians. Allow me to re-post a couple of posts that I wrote awhile back that deal with this issue. _______________ There are three passages, all by Paul, that use the phrase 'old man': Rom. 6:6, Col. 3:9, and Eph. 4:22. Rom. 6:6 - “knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;” Col. 3:9 - “Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,” Eph. 4:22 - “that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,” What happens to the 'old man' in a believer? Anthony Hoekema writes (in Five Views of Sanctification by Zondervan Publishing House, 1987): “On the question of the relation between these two selves, Reformed theologians differ. Most of them, particularly those who taught and wrote some years ago, hold that the old self and the new self are distinguishable aspects of the believer. Before conversion believers have an old self; at the time of conversion, however, they put on the new self – but without totally losing the old self. The Christian, on this view, is understood to be partly a new self and partly an old self – something like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. At times the old self is in control, but at other times the new self is in the saddle; the struggle of life, according to this view, is the struggle between these aspects of the believer's being.” (pg. 78). Does Scripture support the notion that believers have two natures at the same time? To answer this question, let us consider several points: What is the 'old man'?, and what does Scripture says about the 'old man'? 1) What is the old man? There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that the 'old man' is our sin nature. Again, Hoekema writes: “What does Paul mean here by the 'old self'? Murray suggests that this expression designates 'the person in his unity as dominated by the flesh and sin.' In other words, Paul is here talking about a totality: the total person enslaved by sin,' what we all are by nature. That 'person enslaved by sin,' he is saying, was crucified with Christ. When Christ died on the cross, He dealt a deathblow to the old self we once were. Given the meaning of 'crucified,' Romans 6:6 states with unmistakable clarity that we are no longer the old selves we once were.” (pg. 79). This is an important point. There is nothing to indicate in any of the three verses dealing with the 'old man' that we, as Christians, are both 'old man' and 'new man' at the same time. In the first place, Rom. 6:6 tells us that the 'old man' has been crucified with Christ. The result of crucifixion is death. Yet, according to the traditional reformed view, the 'old nature' is still alive and kicking. Here is how one proponent (Herman Bavanick) of this view describes the relationship between the 'old man' and the 'new man' (as quoted by Hoekema): “The struggle (in the Christian life)...is between the inner man of the heart, which has been created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness, and the old man who, though driven out of the center, still wants to maintain his existence, and who fights all the more fiercely the more territory he loses...This is the struggle between two people in the same person...In every deliberation and deed of the believer, therefore, good and evil are as it were mingled together;...in all his thoughts and actions something of the old and something of the new man is present.” (pg. 78). Notice how far short this description falls from what Scripture actually says. Scripture doesn't say that the 'old man' has been 'driven out of the center', or that the 'old man' is fighting fiercely as he loses more territory. It says that he has been crucified. I will address the second question in my next post! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Morant61 | 228690 | ||
Part II 2) What does Scripture say about the 'old man'? As there are only three verses which mention the 'old man', it is fairly simple to find out what Scripture says about him. First of all, Rom. 6:6 tells us that the 'old man' has been crucified with Christ; hence, he is dead. He is not on life support, fighting to maintain control. He is dead. Secondly, Col. 3:9 tells us that believers have 'put him off'. The verb used describes the past action of taking off the old man like a set of dirty clothes. What does this mean for us? It means that we do not have two competing natures. We are literally new creations. 2 Cor. 5:17 - “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” We are not individuals who 'will' be made new. We have been made new. Does this mean that a Christian can no longer sin? No! I will try to post a study later on Paul's use of the word 'sarx' or 'flesh'. No where does Scripture tell us that it is impossible for us to sin, because we can still choose to obey the 'sarx'. However, at the same time, no where does Scripture tell us that we have two natures competing against one another. This is an important concept to grasp as we try to understand the relationship between sin and a believer. Some would have us to believe that the best one can hope for in this life is to give in to the old man less and give in to the new man more. But, this falls far short of the decisive and victorious comments of Scripture regarding sin. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228695 | ||
Tim, Surely you aren't suggesting the total absence of something in us that is still yearning towards sin, flesh, sin nature? Gal 5:16,17 seem to clearly be painting a present struggle in Christians, even though I grant that verse 24 is teaching that true Christians can be identified as the ones who are having some victory to show in this struggle. Am I missunderstanding you or do you agree with this? You can't simply categorize it as if only the phrase "old man" is referring to this discussion and limit it to those passages. Ephesians 4 refers to this as the "old self." Does "Old self" not have import for this discussion? It says with regards to the Old Self, its something we are in the process of putting off and putting on the new self. Eph 4:20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- Eph 4:21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. I think scripture does teach that we have a conflict. If you want to refrain from calling it "two natures" that is fine. I think scripture does seem to try to paint it as something that is outside of a Christian, or perhaps an invading thing inside the Christian yet distinct. But surely you admit that a struggle is still there to be fought due to ongoing temptations that actually do kindle our desires. In Christ, Beja |
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4 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228698 | ||
Beja I tend to agree with you and in 1 John we see lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life as the motives for sin and I believe they are still within us even as believers. I think they were in Eve before she sinned. Genesis 3:6 (NKJV) 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Good for food - Lust of the flesh pleasant to look at - Lust of the eye Would make one wise - Pride of life. |
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5 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | biblicalman | 228702 | ||
There is no man living who is literally dead to sin. All men sin. Indeed until they are able to achieve 'the glory of God' (compare 2 Cor 3.18 which demonstrates that Paul had not), and are able to love God with heart, soul, mind and strength unceasingly, they will continue continually to be sinners. That will never be achieved by anyone in this life. It is an impossible aim. Only Jesus was able to fulfil it. There is no man who does good, and sins not.(Ecclesiastes 7.20). That is why John said, 'if we say that we have no sin (the sin within) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1.8). That is why Jesus made asking for forgiveness a central plank in the Lord's prayer. That is why Paul in Romans 7 made it quite clear that as a Christian he continually fell short of Christlikeness, not 'now and then', but all the time. He continually strove towards the goal. And all the clever arguments in the world will not change that. And when in Romans 6 Paul spoke of having 'died with Christ' He was making clear that having 'died with Christ' did not mean that in our essential natures we have died. It was a positional description resulting from our being united with Christ which we are then to 'reckon on' (6.11). May i also make an appeal. This is a forum for communal discussion. It is not a place for people to engage in conversations. That should be done by email. Best wishes. |
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