Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228600 | ||
Tim, After my first post I think the garden illustration may help. If you are suggesting that it is possible to have a garden free from weeds then I will have no major qualms with you. If you suggest that in this life we can ever be done "weeding" in order to make that so then we have disagreement. In the next life we will have no need to even weed. And THAT is what I would call entire sanctification. And that may help or not help at all! :) In Christ, Beja |
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2 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228605 | ||
Beja I like that analogy of the garden and weeds but what scriptures do you base that on. I find when most people approach this subject the do so from experience of their own lives. The believe they are saved (they may or may not be) and they know they battles they may or may not fight with sin. The thing I find most shocking is many contibute sinless perfection to specific camps of thought yet I who has come out of most of those camps of thought always felt 1 john 2:8 as being very clear and concise that we all still sin. I have recently been told that is all wrong and I'm trying to understand how what scriptures people us to support or oppose Sinless Perfection. |
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3 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228613 | ||
EdB, Yes, I agree with your assessment of 1 John 2:8. It says that the darkness is "passing way" as in that it is not completely gone but in the process of passing. Another verse is James 3:2 Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. Now I think without doubt that James here is speaking to believers. Also another passage I think you should give great attention to is in Philippians 3. For space considerations I will not copy the whole chapter here, but I urge you to go back and read it in context. Php 3:11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Php 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; Paul here emphasises that he has not already become perfect yet he presses on to that. Then he says that we ought to have the same exact attitude. I am not perfect yet I press on to perfection. And ofcourse then he says that as many as are "perfect" ought to have this attitude. I think here Paul has intentionally put is in a bind. Now we who might be tempted to thinking we are "perfect" must confess and believe that we are not as a condition of it! Either Paul has lost his mind and is contradicting himself or he has seen fit to say "perfect" the second time in a bit of a tongue in cheek fashion. He says if you are "pefect", then admit you are not perfect. In my opinion James and Paul in Philippians make a much stronger case than Romans 7, as I said in my previous post, I think Romans 7 has the intentions of showing the failure of the law to create righteousness in us rather than any attempt to describe a lost or saved person in particular. I might could think of more passages but this will suffice I think. In Christ, Beja |
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4 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228617 | ||
Actually I didn't mention 1 John 2:8 and if I did it was by accident, however I think it fits here also. I like your analyst of Philippians and again I think to me it confirms Sinless Perfection while it should certianally be our goal is not obtainable in a imperfect world by imperfect flesh. Once we have our incorruptable bodies we can live in Sinless Perfection. I also agree you post on sanctication is excellent work. Thank you for it. However I would like to hear others thoughts. |
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5 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | biblicalman | 228622 | ||
Just to add a few thoughts on Romans 7.7-8.2 (the section where Paul speaks in the singular). A perusal of the passage divides it into three parts, that expressed in the past tense (7.7-13), that expressed in the present tense (7.14-25), and a final summary in 8.1-2. It appears to me that unless we ignore what Scripture says in order to support our own positions this makes quite clear that in 7.7-13 Paul is speaking of past experience, and in 7.14-25 he is speaking of present experience. How we then interpret what he says is another question. But we must not avoid what Scripture makes clear. But it is noticeable that he concludes the section by declaring that, in spite of what is carnal within him, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. He then goes on to explain why. |
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6 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228624 | ||
"But it is noticeable that he concludes the section by declaring that, in spite of what is carnal within him, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. He then goes on to explain why." Then do you feel this supports my hypothesis that sin is no longer a determining factor in our lives anymore. What determines our salvation is the condition of our hearts? That is why Jesus is making constant intercession for us, because our sin don't count? Or do they count but in a different way? If we look at Romans 7 Paul makes the statement that sin is dead to the believer. Yet I think each of us will admit we still deal with it. If something is dead it is no longer a factor. Are we not believers? Or did Paul mean sin was dead as in no longer the determining factor in our relationship with God? |
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7 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228625 | ||
EdB, Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. Here it speaks of sin being dead apart from the law. And in Chapter seven the primary emphasis is that we died to the law. So now, without the law being the determing factor in our justification or condemnation, sin is powerless. For sin can only slay us when the commandment hangs over us which says, "the soul who sins shall die." (Ezek 18:4). So by dying, in Christ, to the law sin is now powerless to condem us through the law. However, we should not go on to say that sinfulness or holiness has nothing to do with our salvation or fate. Paul has affirmed in multiple places that it does. 1 Cor 6:9,10 Ephesians 5:5,6 Galatians 5:19,20. And again Hebrews warns us in Hebrews 12:14. But the key is to see in what way they have to do with our fate and salvation. And the answer to that is that they are NOT how we aquire salvation, but rather are part of that salvation which has been aquired for us by Christ. I say this from Ezekiel 36:25-27 and the new covenant in Hebrews 8. What Christ has purchased for us is forgiveness from sin immediately, ongoing and certain growth in Christ-likeness/holiness in this life, and ultimate perfection of the same in the life to come. So while turning from sin has nothing to do with how we RECEIVE the salvation, it does have a very great deal to do with our salvation. All, save easy believism advocates, will agree on this. At least I presume all in this discussion agree to the pattern of salvation by faith, then growing sanctification in this life, and finally glorification in the age to come. The only matter of debate on the table is how far we can actually come in our progress in sanctification in this life. All agree it will be progressive, non suggest it goes so far as glorification (I hope). Now in Christ, sin is dead to us in two senses. First, it has lost all power to condem because the law has utterly been satisfied on our account. Second, it is dead because it is fading and ready to pass. The Holy Spirit is continually working it out of our lives. And as Tim has pointed out it is no longer our slave master. (See Romans 6) Meaning that by the power of the spirit we can arm ourselves and defeat sin in our lives in a practical way. However, and this is the limit of sanctification in this life, that constant fight of battling and removing sin will never be finished in this life, as I showed from Philippians. Now why is Jesus still making intercession for us? We ought not understand this as if he is continually having to plead with the Father on our behalf as if the Father really wants to smite us but everytime he proceeds to the Son comes up with some good reason for him to not do so (Luke 12:32). Rather let us take our understanding from the priestly work in the old testament. First the sacrifice was made, but then the work was not done. Next, the priest had to make the actually intercession. But here we learn something, this intercession was merely an application of the blood to its intended recipient, and a display of the sacrifice by its blood. This is what we should understand of Christ's interceding work. He is continual in God's presence as a ongoing display to God of our clensing sacrifice. And He sends the Spirit to apply that sacrifice through clensing through the Spirit, His Word, and Faith. Now, this intercession matters with regards to our sanctification. First, because all of our sanctification depends upon the work of the Holy Spirit in us. (philipians 2:12,13). Second, because it is Christ who has ascended into the presence of the father, received the Holy Spirit, and sent it to us for our salvation, sanctification, and comfort. Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. So Christ's intercession is his evidencing our justifying sacrifice in the presence of God, and then sending on the Holy Spirit which God has granted as a result of his work. And through this Spirit God accomplishes what the law couldn't, namely to cause us to repent and become conformed to godliness. Because the law was weak due to our own flesh, but the spirit is Christ in us unto righteousness and life. Rom 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. In Christ, Beja |
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8 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228633 | ||
You said sin has lost it power to condemn yet others have quoted scripture like 1 Cor 6:9,10 Ephesians 5:5,6 Galatians 5:19,20 allof which cite specific sin for condemnation. What has changed. | ||||||
9 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228638 | ||
EdB, It was I who quoted those passages in the very post you are responding to. And I explained how they fit in. Though I know you are responding to many posts so the mix up is understandable. In Christ, Beja |
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10 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228639 | ||
I think others also quoted them if not I'm sorry. In any case when we look at these verses appear to say various listed sins will cause a person to be eternal damnation. Yet Roman 6-8 says we are dead to sin, free from the penalty of the law, My question if we are still tempted, if we give into that temptation and sin and are condemned to eternal damnation what changed? I'm not being argumentative. But for years I have gave these answers as has proably every pastor ever asked the question. We throw it out and we expect the person asking the question to accept our answer and let it go. Romans 6-8 says we are free yet various other places still list the penalty of sin. Which is it are we free or not. Or have we not been looking at these passages and understandin what they say. I think it might be the latter and that is why I keep asking the question. How do you reconcile these verses? |
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11 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228643 | ||
EdB, I have explained it a few times. Let me try a more ground up approach. 1. All sin will be judged by God. That has always been the problem, sin and judgement from God upon sin. Nothing has changed there. 2. Christ died to pay the punishment for all those who believe upon him. That has always been the answer, nothing has changed. 3. All those who receive Christ has not merely received the benefits of his death, but the benefit of an ongoing union with him in life. 4. All those who enjoy this benefit will continually become more and more holy in practice by the Holy Spirit working in them. 5. Therefore, all those who are saved, will by the power of the Holy Spirit, also be people who practice Holy Lives. Not utterly sinless lives, but lives that have conquered sin such that we, in a relative way, can see a progressed holiness. 6. Therefore it is true, that only those who overcome sin will be saved in that day in which God judges all flesh, as stated in those verses which we are discussing. Therefore it is true there is a holiness without which nobody will see God (Heb 12:14). Therefore it is true that sin will not have dominion over us. Therefore it is true that those with lives completely overcomed by these sins will not be saved in that day. 7. We must understand, the things in point 6 do not "save us" or merit our salvation. They are what God do to a saved person after they are saved. One of the major problems in your attempt to understand this is that you fail to realize who what passages are speaking to. You said: "Romans 6-8 says we are free yet various other places still list the penalty of sin. Which is it are we free or not. Or have we not been looking at these passages and understandin what they say." When scripture says the penalty for sin is death, that is what is true for those who do not have Christ. When scripture says that we are free from sin, or that sin will not have dominion over us, or any such thing, that is said to those who are in Christ, who have through faith had Christ die that death penalty for us. How can you ask which it is? It is one for those without Christ, and the other for those who have Christ. Now if you are inclined to say, "Yes, but what scripture do you use to support any of this?" then I urge you to reread my posts in this thread where I did defend these things with passages, or at least any point of it I thought would be contested. I am saying nothing in this post I have not been saying the entire thread. In Christ, Beja |
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