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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | jlhetrick | 178306 | ||
Dear brother Paul, While your post was not extremely lengthy, the several points you ponder would take some time and space to address fully. The overall theme appears to be apparent in your questions: " Is Pharaoh God's agent or enemy? Does a loving God harden his heart and then condemn him? Did not God create evil, (Isaiah 47:7) put evil spirits into Saul, (1 Sam 16:14,15) put evil in a city, (Amos 3:6) and uses a lying spirit. (1 Kings 22:22" My first response is to remind that the only way to understand these things is through the lense of Scripture itself. As I am sure you know, when a verse or passage doesn't make sense to us, we have to compare it to the teachings of Scripture as a whole in order to gain the understanding. An understanding of doctrine plainly taught in Scripture usually solves these kinds of questions in our minds. Doctrines such as the foreknowledge of God, God's sovereignty, His righteousness, free will, etc. Was Pharaoh God's agent or enemy? I believe Sripture teaches that he was both. As Pharaoh, the man was believed to be a god, sent by the gods to rule earth. Easily understood, he was God's enemy. A type of Satan if you will. God is sovereign; He has the absolute right to do all things according to His own good pleasure. When we study the captivity of God's people in Egypt, we see that God not only fulfilled His plan in spite of Pharaoh, but used Pharaoh and what he represented to reveal Himself, His glory, and His sovereignty. In this sense, Pharaoh might be seen as God's agent. Begin reading in Ezek 36:16 for a good understanding of how God uses the circumstances of men to glorify Himself and work sanctification in His own. "did not God create evil..." Absolutely not. Nowhere in Scripture will we find such a teaching. And He did not "put" evil Spirits in Saul. He departed from Saul and allowed the evil spirit to terroize Saul. The best Scriptural explanation I can think of to help understand this would be Job's story. Begin at Job 1:1. Finally, you wrote: "Without David becoming a murderer and adulterer and Judah consorting with someone he thought to be a prostitute, we would not have the lineage of Christ. Have such 'sins' been part of His will?" Not how I Understand it. Again, God is sovereign. The Bible says that He is Holy (Joshua 24:19) He is just (Isa. 45:21). He is neither the creator of sin nor does He tempt any many to sin (James 1:13) God's sovereign plan to redeem mankind did not depend on the sin of David or any other man. Rather, the plan was worked out in spite of their sin. God could have worked out the lineage of Christ through any number of events. Exactly why He chose, for example, to allow David's sin a role only God knows. But what we learn over and over again through Scripture is this. When we see God's plan work out in spite of man's sins and failures, we are left with no doubt that it was and is God, and only God that is in control. What would be the alternative? If God's plan work from start to finish through apparently perfect men, who would receive the glory for that? Just my thoughts and understanding. I believe if I would have attempted to address every point you made, this post would have been too long that much more and would have been repetitive. God bless, Jeff |
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2 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | brother paul | 178475 | ||
Dear Jeff, I am coming back to your post on 10.15. 06 The first verse is Isaiah 45;7, 'I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the LORD do all these things.' The fascinating thing about this verse is that all the verbs are used in Genesis to describe the birth of man. 'Let us make man' (1:27), 'ASAH' to assemble, the work of the builder. 'God created man' (1:26) 'BARA' to cut, separate, the work of the carpenter. 'God formed man' (2:7), 'YATSAR' to mould, the work of the potter. Lets put these understandings into Isaiah 45:7, 'I mould the light, and separate the darkness; I build peace, and separate the evil; I the LORD do all these things.' Makes sense? When we come back to Genesis 1:1 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth', we now read how God had to separate the physical from the spiritual. There is a separation, in His ceative p;an thet preceeds reconciliation. Even the first word translated as 'In the beginning. involves a separation. An agricultral term that means a separation of the firstfruit. To do the same with 1:1 we now read, 'to get His fruitage, God has to separate the physical from the spiritual.' That brings me back to the original hypothesis, the plan of God requires alienation before reconciliation. Love you brother, yours and His, Paul. |
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3 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | mark d seyler | 178481 | ||
Hi Paul, That's a very interesting word study of Isaiah45:7 - I can't wait to look at that myself. But I have a huge problem with your claim that God is unable to achieve His purpose without sin. It's just completely out of step with the Biblical concepts that God is Holy (Separate unto Himself), and Righteous (everything He does is right). Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | brother paul | 178578 | ||
Dear Mark, Thank you for your reply, may I suggest that your study includes Ezekiel 23:47 where the word 'dispatch' is translated from 'Bara', to create or cut with a sword, to separate? Another aspect of these three Hebrew verbs, 'Bara, Asah and Yatszar' is that they all refer to the modification of something that already exsits, none refer to origination. I struggle to understand, nothing is written in stone. If I come across as opinionated or dogmatic, I apologize. I feel there is something in what the Lord is trying to show me so I bring it before my brothers for their comments. This I know is on the edge, but I am only seeking Him. What is 'sin'? The transgression of His laws, but Jesus has removed the curse of the law. He died not for our sins but THE SIN of man, the catagory of sin. You can no longer be fined for speeding if the speed limit is removed. A Christian would of course drive carefully because he has the law written in his heart and becomes the fulfillment of the law. God's purpose is to form us in His image, therefore He has His laws, God's laws, which are His before He gave them to us. No one forces Him to keep His own law, He does it because they are right. If we are to be formed in His image then no one else should force us to keep the law, and when our law agrees with His laws we become the fulfillment of them. Until Christ removed the penality of breaking God's law we could not become like Him. This does not free us to be irresponsible, it is the reverse. While I think I am saving my life by keeping certain rules I cannot show the selfless agape love of God, it becomes corrupted. When I said He uses what legalistic orthodoxy calls 'sin', it is a part of our spiritual education. If I contravene the principles there is a price to be paid, but that in itself has contributed to my development, therefore was it 'wrong'? 'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.' (Hebrews 12:6) We have to fast from the tree of knowledge of good and evil if we want to be in His presence. Matt 13:28-30, He does not want us to go weeding out the tares from amond the good seed, because we do not know how His crop matures. A lesson in the nonjudgmentalism of Christ. The only people Jesus judged were the judgers. There were some other verses I wanted to share but I will have to come back, it is now 1:50 a.m. in the UK, speak again. Yours and His Paul |
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5 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | mark d seyler | 178603 | ||
Hi Paul, As I am sure you already know, Hebrew is a very conceptual language in that its letters are pictorial, and as such, relies more on context than many other languages to understand the correct meaning. I myself rely heavily upon the Hebrew scholars, as my grasp of Hebrew is extremely limited, but this I know - the Bible is consistant throughout, and what is true in clear passages is equally true in difficult passages. You have stated that "Jesus died not for our sins but for THE SIN of man." (sic) The Bible says in 1 Cor 15:3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;" this is specific, "our", yours and mine, "sins", indefinite plural, all of each of our sins. You wrote, "You can no longer be fined for speeding if the speed limit is removed." Jesus said, (Matthew 5:17-19) "Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven." Christ did not remove the penalty for breaking God's law, He paid it for us. There is a huge difference. We can become God's children because we died in Christ. Death is the penalty of sin, so we had to die. It's our blessing that we are able to die in His death, so that the curse was upon Him and not on us. Sin is by definition what is not of God. Sin, "hamartia", is to miss the target. "For all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory." Count me among the "legalistic orthodoxy" that calls sin sin. And sin does not help us. Sin kills. Love in Christ, Mark |
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6 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | brother paul | 178628 | ||
Dear Mark, Yes, Hebrew interpretation is subjective. This opens yet another subject of how God honours our choice. He first honours our choice and sets an example of how we should honour His choice. Is there a difference between obedience to the law and the fulfillment of it? If not the Christians would still be sacrificing animals. What is that difference? I did not preclude the penality of missing His principles, 'there is a penality to be paid.' That is not in question, but how does it all work. What is the understanding? Yes 'sin' is missing the mark. When we miss with the first shot it helps to correct the next. Exactly my point, the sinner has gained vital imformation to help him hit the target. He has progressed, it was part of his spiritual development. Was it 'wrong'? Where you seem to be is where I was, probably more so, to my determiment, it leaves so many unanswered scriptural questions. We have now drifted far from the precept of the original thought. In respect for this forum, having prayed and sought of Him, I feel that it is best to reopen the subject with new threads that bring the debate to a more directed conclusion. We have a mixture of answers, notes and questions which have lost their centre. Do you agree? Your and His Paul |
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7 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | mark d seyler | 178630 | ||
Hi Paul, As far as I can tell from reading the Bible, sin is death, and sin is what Jesus died to save us from. Sin is not part of the path to knowing God. I do not consider the line of thinking which you are presenting to resemble any true Biblical concept, and in fact, seems to directly fly in the face of much that is written. The sinner has not "gained vital information", the sinner is dead. Unless Jesus saves that sinner, the sinner remains dead. When Jesus saves a sinner, He tells them, "leave your sin, and do not return to it. Go and sin no more." Love in Christ, Mark |
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8 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | brother paul | 178637 | ||
Dear Mark, Are we not all sinners? I am the greatest, like the apostle Paul, and sin brings death. But to die is gain. (Phill 1:21) In death is the resurrection, indeed we have to be dead to ourselves before we can be resurrested. Jesus came to teach us how to die, death to self. We die daily. The process of God. Yes, 'sin no more', but that 'sin' can be offending the 'least of these. my brothers'. and that 'sin' can be anything that would offend the most delicate of misguided conscience. This enters an area outside of law, we are now talking about their individual 'rights and wrongs'. the concept goes higher. It no longer rests on rules but love and understanding. This is the love of Christ, it goes deeper than orthodox legalism, it is now talking about love. This is empathy. coming to where a person is, like the good samaritan who met the man where he was. Not like the preists who passed by, because they walked in judgment and legalism. it is not that simple, I would love the body of Christ to start searching, raise the questions that the Holy Spirit might bring in us into all truth. Yours and His Paul |
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9 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | mark d seyler | 178669 | ||
Hi Paul, Rather than just give us your own claims, please share with us those Scriptures that teach these things. I don't beleive they exist. The Bible says: Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), You were dead, but God has made you alive. You say that in death is the resurrection, yes that's true, but only for the redeemed. Those who have not been redeemed, who are still facing the result of their sin, are lost, there is no resurrection for them, only eternal death. Sin is not to be tolerated, condoned, looked on as good, or any such thing. The least sin you can imagine was sufficiant to separate you, or me, from God forever. But He died to pay for it, so that we might live. I will never waver from that truth. Love in Christ, Mark |
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10 | verse explains nonChrist knowing savior | 2 Cor 5:15 | DocTrinsograce | 178672 | ||
Amen... well said, Brother Mark. Thank you! A solidly, Scripturally grounded understanding of Hamartiology is as important as a solidly, Scripturally grounded understanding of Soteriology. By God's grace we will, indeed, stand firm on these truths without wavering. |
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