Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | Pastor Glenn | 153663 | ||
"...Within each of us dwells two natures: the flesh and the Spirit (Eph. 2:1-3, Gal. 5:16-17, John 3:6). They share the same environment. Same body. Identical eyes, ears and other senses. ..." http://www.pluggedinonline.com/discernment/a0001822.cfm Hello Doc, Please check out the article at the link above. I think that you will find it interesting. Your brother in Christ, Pastor Glenn |
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2 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | DocTrinsograce | 153675 | ||
Hi, Pastor Glenn... This view is reminiscent of Manichean Dualism. The orthodox view acknowledges the existance and continued influence of the flesh in the life of the believer. However it denies that man consists of two natures. We can choose to avail ourselves of the means of grace, or we can "feed the flesh." (But the former is not feeding some kind of "spirit man" inside us.) This all concerns the topic of sanctification. You can read the Baptist perspective on this topic here: http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc13.html The study of Biblical anthropology is important. Without an accurate, Biblical view of the nature of man, many errors can, have, and do arise. In Him, Doc |
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3 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | Pastor Glenn | 153678 | ||
Thanks for the link Doc. You wrote: "The orthodox view acknowledges the existance and continued influence of the flesh in the life of the believer. However it denies that man consists of two natures." How then, does the orthodox view explain these scriptures without denying these scriptures as well? Gal 5 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. John 3 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Born again" here clearly implies something new is born. Please explain how the phrase "choosing to avail ourselves of the means of grace", covers the Lord's teaching of being born again. I am somewhat surprised and puzzled that you did not post a link supporting your view. Notice the phrase "...a new spirit created in them ..." below. I am copying the page that you referenced here: Chapter 13: Of Sanctification 1._____ They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally, through the same virtue, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. ( Acts 20:32; Romans 6:5, 6; John 17:17; Ephesians 3:16-19; 1 Thessalonians 5:21-23; Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:24; Colossians 1:11; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Hebrews 12:14 ) 2._____This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. ( 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Romans 7:18, 23; Galatians 5:17; 1 Peter 2:11 ) 3._____ In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life, in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in His Word hath prescribed them. ( Romans 7:23; Romans 6:14; Ephesians 4:15, 16; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Corinthians 7:1 ) Your brother in Christ, Pastor Glenn |
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4 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | DocTrinsograce | 153684 | ||
Dear Pastor Glenn, Thank you for your questions. I'll do my best to explain. Regarding Galatians 5:16-18, the word "Spirit" refers to the Holy Spirit, not a "spirit man" that exists alongside a "flesh man" inside of us. At salvation the Holy Spirit makes His dwelling place within us. The article you sent me was speaking of believers. John 3 is speaking of salvation. Salvation is a work of regeneration, as verses 1 through 6 describes. However, it is a mysterious work that is like the wind (verse 7). Just as we can see the winds effects, we cannot account for its movements, nor how it does what it does. Regeneration is, indeed, a spiritual rebirth. This is the metaphor that Christ used and was also used by the apostles. The BCF uses somewhat similar language. But it does not mean that there is a "spirit being" now living within me. I agree that there are metaphors that sound something like this, even to the extent of speaking of the "old man" and the "new man." But these are metaphors. I died in Christ. I am born again. I am a new creature. I am new wine in a new wineskin. I am a branch of the vine. I am a grafted in shoot. I am the son of the freed woman. Etc. Etc. We do not, however, take these metaphors as descriptions of reality. As the BCF puts it, I have a new heart (that is my affections have been renewed -- I now love God, His Word, and His commands, desiring to obey Him) and I have a new spirit (that is my will has been restored -- I now am no longer enslaved to sin but have the ability to choose righteousness). Now, through the exercise of the means of grace (prayer, Bible study, commitment to the local church, meditation on the Word, etc.) God gives the gift of growth in sanctification. I'd refer you to a more modern discussion of Pauline Anthropology. I apologize to the author, but I do not know his name. He is probably a professor at a seminary in Canada. Whoever he is, he does an excellent job of dealing with Paul's perspective of the nature of humanity. This paper does a far better job than I'd be able to do. http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/Pauline/Human.htm Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our BODY. (Romans 8:23) "Ancient people held many different views about what made human beings the special creatures they are. Some, including many Jews, believed that to be complete, humans needed bodies as well as inner selves. Others, including many influenced by the philosophy of Plato (fourth century B.C.), believed that the important part of a human was the 'soul' (Greek: psyche), which at death would be happily freed from its bodily prison. Confusingly for us, the same word psyche is often used in the New Testament within a Jewish framework where it clearly means 'life' or 'true self,' without implying a body/soul dualism that devalues the body. Human inwardness of experience and understanding can also be referred to as 'spirit'." --N. T. Wright Thank you, again, pastor, for the opportunity to explain. I wish I had time to do more. There is so much to discuss on this point. However, I've got to get back to my studies -- I wish I could share with everyone the exciting things I am learning. In Him, Doc |
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5 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | Pastor Glenn | 153694 | ||
Hello Doc, Thanks for your response. I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this subject peacfully and with respect. The paper that you refered to has one drawback that disapoints me; it is limited to Paul. I really need more detailed analysis concerning several other biblical passages like John 3, Eccl 12:7 and Heb 4:12. Yes, I am speaking of believers when using the term born again. Just simply stating that "born again" is a mataphor is not enough. Shouldn't we always look for the direct meaning first? metaphor n : a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity When Christ said "that born of the flesh is flesh and that born of the Spirit is spirit", doesn't He remove the possibility of metaphor? It is hard to find much commentary on scriptures that deal with the difference between soul and spirit like Heb 4:12: Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Your brother in Christ, Pastor Glenn |
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6 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | DocTrinsograce | 153700 | ||
Dear Pastor Glenn, We can deliberate in peace because we are brothers desiring the truth. We are not trying to win an argument or defeat an opponent -- unless that opponent is our ignorance. By discussing things carefully and deliberately we honor our Lord and Master. Yes, the paper I offered up addressed Pauline Anthropology as I stated. The largest percentage of didactic writings in the New Testament were written by Paul.. Peter affirms that Paul's writings are inspired and warrant study (2 Peter 3:15-16). If you read the apostles, you are reading what Christ would say. They are equally the words of God. You wrote, "Just simply stating that 'born again' is a mataphor is not enough. Shouldn't we always look for the direct meaning first?" (sic) Good question. Let's look at John 3 a bit closer. Speaking to Nicodemus, our Lord said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3 NKJV) Nicodemus was surprised by this statement. Taking the expression literally -- the antonym of metaphorically -- "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (verse 4) Now, if the correct interpretation was that being born again is to be taken literally, then Christ would have said, "Yes, that's correct." Instead, He gives a more detailed explanation, describing that we are begotten in the flesh by flesh, but that being begotten in the spirit is done in a mysterious way by the Spirit, etc. Therefore, the proper interpretation of Christ's phrase "born again" is metaphorical, not literal. Peter uses the same metaphor in his first epistle: Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, But the word of the LORD endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you. (1 Peter 1:22-25) Paul uses a different phrase in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13. However, the Scriptures views regeneration to take place in the WHOLE man (2 Corinthians 5:17, and also see the verse in Romans I cited in my last post to you). Regarding Hebrews 4:12 let me quote Dr. Wayne Grudem from his Systematic Theology. He addresses your point of distinction between soul and spirit when he writes, "This verse, which talks about the Word of God 'piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow' is best understood in a way similar to 1 Thessalonians 5:23. The author is not saying that the Word of God can divide 'soul FROM spirit,' but he is using a number of terms (soul, spirit, joints, marrow, thoughts, and intentions of the heart) that speak of the deep inward parts of our being that are not hidden from the penetrating power of the Word of God. IF we wish to call these our 'soul,' then Scripture pierces into the midst of it and divides it and discoveries its inmost intentions. If we wish to call this inmost non-physical side of our being our 'spirit,' then Scripture penetrates into the midst of it and divides it and knows its deepest intentions and thoughts. Or if we wish to think metaphorically of our inmost being as hidden in our joints and in our marrow, then we can think of Scripture being like a sword that divides our joints or that pierces deeply into our bones and even divides the marrow in the midst of the bones. In all of these cases the Word of God is so powerful that it will search out and expose all disobedience and lack of submission to God. In any case, soul and spirit are not thought of as separate parts; they are simply additional terms for our inmost being." In Him, Doc |
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7 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | Pastor Glenn | 153770 | ||
Hello Doc, Before I respond to your post I wanted to add more scriptures: 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself,[e] and the wicked one does not touch him. "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable (1 Pet 1:23)." Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Your brother in Christ, Pastor Glenn |
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8 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | DocTrinsograce | 153773 | ||
Dear Pastor Glenn, The epistle 1 John does speak of us being "begotten" (gennao) of God. This is the same Greek word that the apostle used in his gospel. I have already addressed 1 Peter 1:23. Regarding Galatians 4:27, John Gill wrote, "by her that was 'barren', and 'bore' not, and 'travailed' not, and was 'desolate', is not meant the Gentile world, which before the coming of Christ was barren and destitute of the knowledge of him, and from among whom very few were called by grace; but the Gospel church in the first beginnings of it, in Christ's time, and especially about the time of his death, and before the pouring forth of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost." Galatians 4:29 is a reiteration of Christ's comments in John 3:6. Pastor, are you reading my posts fully? Please note in Scripture we are also called adopted, firstfruits of Christ, redeemed bond-servants, purchased, vine branches, dead men made alive, branches of the one true vine, children of God, sheep, Godly seed, etc. etc. Why don't you fasten onto one of these metaphors as strenuously as you do the gennao anothen? Each of these things bear truth and are valuable for us to understand. However, they are spiritual things being explained using physical parallels. We cannot build entire metaphysical realities on these phrases. In Him, Doc |
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9 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | Pastor Glenn | 153790 | ||
Hello Doc, You asked: "Pastor, are you reading my posts fully?" Yes, I am reading your posts fully. However, first of all, since I have never heard a Christian express none belief in the "spirit nature" of a believer as you have, I am studying the subject more deeply. Secondly, I have also never heard a Christian refer to "born again" as a metaphor. Thirdly, you refer to your view as orthodox, when as of yet, I am unable to find much in the way of clear positions on these matters in Creeds and Confessions. I do not doubt your Christianity, I just have never heard anyone on this forum or elsewhere, not even radio or TV ministries, express your positions. Maybe there are many that believe as you do, but I wish that they would speak out also. Here is some of what I found so far: http://www.carm.org/creeds.htm Belgic Confession (1561) This Reformed confession was prepared in 1561 by Guy de Bres (c.1523-1567), who was later martyred, and others, and then slightly revised by Francis Junius (1545-1602) of Bourges. First written in French, it was soon translated into Dutch and Latin. The Synod of Dort (1618-1619) made a revision but did not change the doctrine. It covers the spectrum of theological topics. Article 35: The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper We believe and confess that our Savior Jesus Christ has ordained and instituted the sacrament of the Holy Supper to nourish and sustain those who are already born again and ingrafted into his family: his church. Now those who are born again have two lives in them. The one is physical and temporal-- they have it from the moment of their first birth, and it is common to all. The other is spiritual and heavenly, and is given them in their second birth; it comes through the Word of the gospel in the communion of the body of Christ; and this life is common to God's elect only. http://www.fbctaylors.org/resources/wft.php?wft(equal symbol)146 Dichotomists dismiss the verses trichotomists hold as verification of the spirit/soul distinction. Believing it unnecessary, they find other explanations of verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “…spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless…” They do not see trichotomy in Hebrews 4:12-13, “…piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit…” suggesting it would have to say, “soul from spirit” if it really taught trichotomy. Dichotomy vs. trichotomy is not a distinction to cause separation among brethren, but the man who rejects trichotomy loses one of the most helpful explanations of Biblical psychology. Why explain away these two verses in answering, “Is man a dichotomy or a trichotomy?” Pastor Vaughn, February 1, 2004 I plan to respond in detail in a few days. Your brother in Christ, Pastor Glenn |
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10 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | DocTrinsograce | 153838 | ||
Dear Pastor Glenn, Regarding your first point: what I am denying is that salvation creates a second man in the believer. Salvation does not create a kind of schizophrenia. Instead, a man is made whole. As the old divines put it, "The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin. (Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17)" (BCF, chapter 6, paragraph 5.) Regarding your second point, here are some references: "All sin exposes men to misery here and hereafter. To escape from sin, to be happy in the world to come, it is necessary that man should be changed in his principles, his feelings, and his manner of life. This change, or the beginning of this new life, is called the 'new birth,' or 'regeneration.' It is so called because in many respects it has a striking ANALOGY to the natural birth. It is the beginning of spiritual life. It introduces us to the light of the gospel. It is the moment when we really begin to live to any purpose. It is the moment when God reveals himself to us as our reconciled Father, and we are adopted into his family as his sons." --Albert Barnes "When a man is converted to God, it is done in a moment. Regeneration is an instantaneous work. Conversion to God, the fruit of regeneration, occupies all our life, but regeneration itself is effected in an instant. A man hates God -- the Holy Spirit makes him love God. A man is opposed to Christ, he hates his gospel, does not understand it and will not receive it -- the Holy Spirit comes, puts light into his darkened understanding, takes the chain from his bondaged will, gives liberty to his conscience, gives life to his dead soul, so that the voice of conscience is heard, and the man becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus.And all this is done, mark you, by the instantaneous supernatural influence of God the Holy Spirit working as he wills among the sons of men." --Charles Hadon Spurgeon "The twin principles of the Reformation figured highly in Pietism but not without change and development. The language of salvation changed from its forensic, legal character to a more biological and organic TYPE OF EXPRESSION. No Pietist would deny or disregard the gospel of the justification of a sinner by the free grace of God. But a Pietist would express reservation as to the sufficiency of the language of justification to encompass the scope of God’s saving activity." --Dale W. Brown "[The phrase] 'be born again' [John 3:3], or, AS IT WERE, begin life anew in relation to God; his manner of thinking, feeling, and acting, with reference to spiritual things, undergoing a fundamental and permanent revolution." --Robert Jamieson "Regeneration is the SPIRITUAL CHANGE wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3, 5, 7; Titus 3:5). It is an inner re-creating of fallen human nature by the gracious sovereign action of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature." --J. I. Packer Regarding your third point: please refer to the Gnostic heresy from the first century and the Manichean heresy, from the third century. Dualism is dealt with by the church at these times. It is hard to get much more orthodox than that. :-) Much of these heresies have resurfaced and find themselves manifested in the "New Evangelism" of our day. Much is made about "literal interpretation" but very little is really understood in terms of sound exegesis. It is perfectly permissable to use the phrase "born again," "born from above," etc. They are Scriptural terms. However, they are only one of many terms. I am confused as to why some of these metaphors are more readily taken literally than others. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that it is pretty clear that we are not literally branches in a vine, whereas one cannot actually see these "inner" beings. In Him, Doc PS You may also which to refer to my posts on the ordo salutis (151193) in general and regeneration in particular (151466). |
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11 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | Pastor Glenn | 153972 | ||
Hello Doc, I think we have a big misunderstanding concerning the "spirit nature". At this time, I wish to comment only on this issue. You wrote: "Regarding your first point: what I am denying is that salvation creates a second man in the believer. Salvation does not create a kind of schizophrenia. Instead, a man is made whole." To speak of a "second man" or "spirit person" is not the same thing as when we say a "spirit nature". A spirit nature is not a “person”, any more than the fleshly (carnal, or beastly) nature is a person. The “soul” is the person. Just as a believer’s soul sometimes chooses the carnal desires or nature (Samson’s life for example), the believer also can choose the spirit desires or nature daily. An unsaved person can choose whether to feed the natural desires of the flesh or not. So, I am trying to explain that while there is no real schizophrenia within a believer, there is a battle. However, I think that we both agree that the Holy Spirit dwelling within the believer creates somewhat of schizophrenia type battle against our "fleshly desires". In short, even though we may never agree on the existence of a “spirit nature”, I am sure we agree on the battle of the flesh vs. the Holy Ghost. I believe that this spirit nature is totally holy since it is born from the Holy Ghost. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5-6) 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Corinthians 15:53-54) Any comments? Your brother in Christ, Pastor Glenn |
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12 | filled Holy Spirit, or to walk in spirit | Rom 8:9 | DocTrinsograce | 153974 | ||
Dear Pastor Glenn, Good comments! I think we're getting aligned here. I do, indeed, want to comment. I hope that you will graciously allow me do so in a day or two. I've spent more time than I intended already tonight responding to some other posts. Thank you, sir, for your patience and persistance. Furthermore, I think it wise to zero in on one issue at a time. Our discussions can become too diffuse and confused, usually at the ultimate expense of our arriving at the truth! In Him, Doc |
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