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NASB | John 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | John 8:41 "You are doing the works of your [own] father." They said to Him, "We are not illegitimate children; we have one [spiritual] Father: God." |
Subject: Defending themselves or accusing Jesus? |
Bible Note: Hi Ed, Let us try and avoid getting heated about this, it really is not worth it. Your sources are not based on 1st century sources (there are none) and they are therefore simply a matter of the opinions of the writers as people who live in the modern era against a background of Christian culture and read back later Jewish tradition which was revolutionised after 70 AD. They are not backed up by facts. I provided you with three sources which confirmed that betrothal could be initiated by sexual activity, but you simply ignored them. Now Tim has brought one of them up you accept it, although in my view you draw wrong conclusions from it. You have no sources which refer to Mikvah applying in 1st century AD, certainly not before the fall of Jerusalem. If you have I would be more than delighted to see them. But I do not believe that any are available, and scholars confirm the fact. So your conclusion does not follow, and furthermore no one is sure when Mikvah applied. Ritual cleanisng was something that was going on all the time, and always necessary after sexual relation. I have already cited Ellison writing in 'A New Testament Commentary'. But I cannot offhand remember which other authorities i found discussion of the subject in, but I can assure you that they were scholarly sources, not just 'popular' sources like the ones you mention. I am very careful where I obtain my information from and what I accept. It is always difficult to trace back background information of this kind because it is rarely provided in substantiated form. You cannot read later Jewish customs back to the time of Jesus, and certainly not to Galilee whose views were very different from those in Judea. Nor am I convinced that Mikvah is anything like our baptism. Mikvah, whenever it began, was a ceremony of ritual cleansing, John's baptism was never said to offer ritual cleansing. It was an indication of the coming of the Holy Spirit in terms of Isaiah 32.15; 44.1-5; 55.10-13 signifying the giving of life, which would be fulfilled by the coming of the Holy Spirit. Notice that almost all John's preaching was in terms of producing fruit and other agricultural activities. Best wishes |