Results 41 - 60 of 158
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Results from: Notes Author: swerv Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147533 | ||
Ed: Let me get this straight !!! Before man fell to sin - what was the purpose God had for us. Let me see "was it not to love and worship Him" and in return He would bless and love us" We had a relationship with God prior to sin. God loved us deeply and His only requirment was to love God uncoinditionally and obey His commands which were given to bless us and keep us from evil. Now God gave us the creation to enjoy and fill our days with blessings but the only reason God created a 7th day - was for rest AND He "santified" it or set it apart. Time was set apart by God so we would be able during the week to put all things aside - REST - and have the time to really focus on GOD - even though we would always want during the week to please God and fellowship with Him. But this was a specific time alotted by God for this fellowship which would not be competing with any other activites. You seem to be saying that "if" the day was changed from a day of rest to a day of worship - that was a bad thing done by the Jews. Does that really make sense. You do not think Gopd wants our worship. I cannot see you point at all. Even Jesus when He walked with the Jews - went to the synagogue. Never once do we see Jesus condemming the Jewish synogogue worship service. There is just no evidence. Instead it says that Paul and Jesus went and "stood up to read". Sabbath or worship on Sabbath was never condemned by Jesus. He rebuked the Pharisees for making it a burden because they lost sight of not the "resting" part (they added plenty of rest requirments) but the part of loving God through sincere worship which would mean doing "good" on the Sabbath - not just following all there burdensome "added" requirements of the Sabbath. Well if pastors do not think the 1st day replaced the 7th then why not keep the original Sabbath 7th. But most don't. Very few denomination keep the Sabbath (7th) day. I am sorry but clear logic means that if you are resting from routine activites then you have time to do what ????? Worship God together. Clealy, Lev.23:2 - says "holy convocation". Gathering together to worship the God they love and in return loves them. Obviously, God's love in not contigent on man's love. Jews did not make it into a worship day - God made it for worship and fellowship with Him because man was free from daily (day 1-6) activities. Yes they did not collect manna - Why cause God provided it. So they did not have to do any work. Jesus - did not say "more or less" he was the Sabbath or He would have said it. Do not make general statements where there no scripture to back them up. Jesus clearly said He was Lord of the Sabbath. So I guess that means He cancelled it and moved it to his future resurection. Meaning that if His disciples broke a Jewish law of collecting food - since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and these are His disciples doing His work of His ministry then I guess gathering some food was ok according to God's purpose of His ministry. But by no means does Jesus say we are to begin working on the Sabbath or cease from coming together on the Sabbath to "convocate" together to love and worship Him. Will continue, Merv Merv |
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42 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147537 | ||
Ok - if the 7th day Sabbath was ceremonial can you find a good reason why God put the Sabbath command in the 10 Comm. if it was to be done away with the other "sabbaths / feasts" at the cross. The ceremonial law - written by Moses was put outside the ark while the 10 Comm. were put in the ark. Maybe had to do with Rom.7:12-14, Mal. 3:6, Ps. 19:7, Ps. 111:7-8. Inside ark was most Holy Place on earth. No one to even touch the ark !!! Look closely at Lev. 23 - feasts are also called "sabbaths". I guess since we are no longer to keep the Sabbath - then God making it "santified" just goes away also with no explanation. I guess just like God made ALL unclean animals clean we can assume the same logic that God just decided to make another day "sanctified" EVEN THOUGH there not one single scriptural text which shows this being true. Col. 2:14 clearly says the ceremonial law (sacrifices) was nailed to the cross. This includes all the feasts and additional sabbaths which were a shaddow pointing to Jesus's blood sacrifice. Let's see Moses wrote all these laws and again were kept separate from the 10 Comm. So in Col. 2:16 they were not to be judged on those things revolving around the ceremonial laws of sacrifices and feasts. Lev. 23:37 definetely tells us of the food and drink offerings they were to be making on these days. This is the same food a drink discussed in Col. 2:16. Are we not "spiritual Israel". Sabbath was made for "Man" not only Jew. Sabbath created in beginning before sin and for ALL man - Man was Man then not Jewish. NT never commands Sabbath or Diet because Christians knew what Jewish people followed. In Jerusalem council - they did not list any of the 10 Comm. but we know Jesus said ti keep them. Math. 19:17. He even discussed not to hate because just like "murder". Why did not state at the council. Because this was obvious requirment and teaching of God. You cannot accept the 3-4 illustrations of 1st references without using the same principle to explain references of Jesus and Paul going to synagogue. They broke bread "daily". Paul met on first day because going away for long time. Also - man fell out of window was reason for that story. Does NT show many references to 1st day - NO - 3 to 4. They are discussed not to show a change of Sabbath but to show a mirracle, another to show a collection for needy. Remember they were to collect "and lay up in store" meaning at home. I do not think it is strange that Jesus did go to the Synagogue as an example for us. !!! Rom. 14:5 - is discussing the burden that some Jewish Christians were placing on the Gentiles to observe the feast/sabbath days not about the Sabbath. Just like the food issue in the beginnin og the chapter is not discussing a debate over clean/unclean meat but the "esteemed" unclean meat due to defilement by idols. We must read scripture in context. I am SORRY but Jesus clearly said He was "LORD OF THE SABBATH" -- could this possible be what John was referring to. The Lord's Day. Let me see this same Lord was the one who created and rested on this day. Could I please have one single scripture before Christ's death or a command or statement that would change the Lord's day from the Sabbath to the 1st day or even better a request or command or hint - that God/Jesus said that people were to honour the day of His resurection. In love and respect, Merv |
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43 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147538 | ||
Brad: I appreciate this discussion and how the debate does reflect our love for our brother. I apologize if I have made inappropriate comments. Also, sorry for bad spelling and grammar. Should check before I sent them off. But Brad - you cannot say "lawkeepers" are trying to be holy or gaining righteousness. No one on this board has yet to explain why God is commanding us the be "lawkeepers" or "legalistic". Because that is what you are saying when you refer to keeping His law. The law does not save - only the blood of Jesus saves us from our sin. Once we repent - to follow "love thy neighbor" means we will not disobey God (Rom.13:8). Adam and Eve did not have to do anything but not disobey God. They were created in righteousness (right relationship with God - justified because there was yet sin). So they had a perfect relationship with God - the only thing they could do to "screw it up" was to disobey God. Jesus brought us back int right relationship with Him but again we are the ones if we do not obey will "screw it up". In respect, Merv |
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44 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147540 | ||
Sorry Ed but the Sabbath was created by Gof for Man - not Jew. Just like sacrifices were required by God of Abel where there is no direct statment to say they were to do it. Just cause the Sabbath command is not in Genesis - I think it is pretty naive of us to think it was not a "law" of God when we have evidence of Abraham keeping "laws" in Gen 26:5. Ignoring the OT and relying on only 4 1st day references in the NT is just plain bad interpretation. Merv |
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45 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147542 | ||
Tim: No problem ! I have taken time to respond also. Hope all is well now. But Tim I would have to disagree that we cannot look at things "different ways". God is consistent and unchanging !! There is only one truth or else this would open the door to many ways to heaven - which is opposite to what Jesus says that only through Him can we be saved. Why cause only His blood can save. The God of the OT is consistent of the Jesus of the NT. If they are the same voice shown through the disciples (being inspired) how can a God angered by the eating of swine's flesh (Is. 65:4) be the same God who says all unclean meats are now clean. God wants to destroy our bodies to save the Gentiles. Makes no sense. No Tim: Rom. 14 cannot be saying "nothing is unclean". That would be like saying God telling Peter that "do not call unclean what I have called clean" would support God cleansing all animals for consumption. Was there a food shortage or something. God used that profound statement to wake up Peter to see He meant Gentiles were now clean NOT unclean animals were clean. If we want to support a doctrine we can justify multiple interpretations or even blatent wrong interpretaitons. We have already discussed Math. 15 amd Mark 7. See to make the unclean meats go away - these texts all have to point to this change. But they do not !! So then where is the support for this change. God would never want us to harm our bodies. They are the temple of God and we are not to defilke them. It would be like God saying smoking or getting drunk was OK -NT bodies can handle it now with no effects. Now Tim, Mark 7:19 - must be read in context. Please read it again !! It starts saying that the defiled food (by unwashed hands) goes into the stomach and is eliminated "thus purifying all foods" -- NKJV This states that the body deals with unclean food due to unwashed hands. That is it !!!! Nowhere does the text talk about the disciples eating unclean meat (unclean - meaning the animals God said not to eat). Plus I do not think you have explained why Peter would disobey God in the vision if the teaching was made clear to him by Jesus during His ministry. In love, Merv |
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46 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147544 | ||
Matt: Yes we are not saved by the law but we are clearly instructed to keep the law by Jesus. Math. 19:17 Law does not save but does show our love for God ! Merv |
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47 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147550 | ||
Hey Mark: Glad to here from you !! I look forward to discussing these issues with anyone. I will repeat that I grew up in Protestant denomination so I have held the same beliefs as my fellow forum members. Even further than this when I was challenged originally two years ago I had the full intention to show my co-worker that his belief in the Sabbath, No eternal hell, Non-immortality of the soul, prophecy, diet, and the Sabbath - were not scriptural because mainly I "just" knew it could not be right according to what I believed. I was by no means a theologian but I had been told so much as I grew up that there are many "cults" out there. So off I went into the scripture to find my answers to these issues. Now I want to make this clear that I went to scripture and scripture alone to find the answers. Obviously I had the verses that my co-worker used to support his view so I had reference points. My most of my understanding came from scripture and the inadequate responses I recieved from pastors and fellow Christians on the subject. The more I got unscriptural answers or non-contextual answers the more I searched for truth. Most of my family members - instead of giving me scriptural background for the doctines of the Chruch they instead pointed me to a certain pastor or certain minister that would get me back on track. The conclusion, is that certain doctrines held by the "church" are not scriptural and are just plain wrong. Just as the Roman Catholic Church tries to surpress the truth - I have come to the same conclusion that the Protestant community is not being honest in the history of these doctrines. Will continue, Merv |
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48 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147551 | ||
Clearly God judged because they were ungodly and God new there heart that instead of being obedient to God they wanted to be obedient to there own desires. Cannot have wickedness without sin and cannot have sin without law. Law that governs sin is the 10 commandments. I still need an answer as why did God set a law in the OT in the garden. To test if they would be loyal to God or the devil. Merv |
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49 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147554 | ||
Now Mark: Depending on what we mean by salvation. Did not Judas decide to follow Jesus but in the end turned against the one he followed. Did not Adam and Eve have the perfect relationship to God prior to giving it to believing lies from the devil. Not only did they have to believe the devil they also had to act on that belief. Are we to consider ourselves any better than those like Peter and David who both fell away from God and into sin. Peter rejected God as He prophesied by claiming to not know Him and David committed adultery and murder. But because of there repentant hearts they came back in right relationship with God and from then on reflected the life of obedience and love for God. 1 John 2:4 clearly says - keeping his commandments is evidence of the Truth within our lives. So yes if we will allow ourselves to be led away by the devil into sin and so not repent and change then God has no choice let us have our free will. Now sincerity of tyhe heart can only be judged by God - so God knows what intent our heart has and also the deceit that is or is not there. A know sin is different than a unknown sin. God will be the judge and the peace that we have will give us the assurance that our heart is in the right place. I hope this helps, Please respond so we can both grow in faith by exploring these tough issues, Merv |
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50 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147557 | ||
Can you give me a good reason why the Sabbath was written on stone and placed in the side of the ark of the covenant? All other laws about feasts, other sabbaths, sacrifices was written by Moses and put on the side of the ark of the covenant. Merv |
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51 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147559 | ||
Steve: Problem again is the Sabbath was used as a test to the people prior to it being "given" at Sinai. The reason is that these 10 Comm. laws were in existence with original man - probably even Adam and Eve. But because fell away from God and his law we have the flood and Sodom. But since Abraham showed faith then God put in place a plan to make covenant with an entire nation which he saved from bondage. As "part" of that covenant agreement was the law of God "10 Comm. and the laws governing sacrifices". Called God's moral law and ceremonial law. But these 10 Comm. laws were not "new" but instead they had fallen away from these laws. That is why God - right away - decided to test the people to see if they would again keep the Sabbath. Seems clear to me !!! Ps. 40:7,8 Ps.19:7, Is. 42:21, Ps. 111:7-8 are pretty clear that God's LAW is Perfect, Unchanging, Eternal, and Hounorable. James 2:12 - The law of liberty. Glad to talk, Merv |
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52 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147610 | ||
Steve: Adultery and repentance have everything to refute your arguement that God does not require obedience. Obedience is a reflection of our love. True repentance brings a heart in allignment with God and his law a principles to live a health, long life for Him. Short but sweet !! Merv |
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53 | Hank - Diet ??? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147612 | ||
Hey Steve: Do not think mushrooms would be a problem. Actually this goes to the point of our whole question. Depending on the context of the mushrooms !! Just like wine can be fermented or grape juice. Clearly Jesus taught against wine except to dull pain. Mushrooms are the same !! Some forms are good for us but some not !! vs. 18 -- important phrase --- you said "so there's no idea for Christians to attempt to keep it" I guess that is the basis of deciet that the devil used on Eve. "Eve - you do not really have to keep the law to not eat from the tree - God is a liar" Teaching this is directly going against Jesus command "If you love me keep my commandments" Not 9 out 10 - ALL 10 Also follow my guidlines for health living so we do not defiel the temple of God !!! I am sorry Steve but you have given no real answer to my arguements. Relying on tradition is not good !! Math. 15:3 -- 1 John 2:4 What do you think Daniel 15 is taking about the antichrist power "wanting to change times and law" Steve, I know we enjoy this lively debate or we would not have continued it !! But please understand I was a Methodist/Baptist and most of my family cannot explain why they believe what they believe. Istead of grabbing a Bible and proving through scripture they point me to a pastor. This is the problem - "many Chritians" rely oh human teaching and not searching for truth - Like Martin Luther did. There are even modern changes going on right now in the Church - like homosexuality !! Not to jump off topic but to you study much prophecy !! Do you have a good grasp of Daniel 9:26-27 -- Do you think that these passages refer to a future 7 year Tribulation Period which is what the "Left Behind" series promotes !! Merv |
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54 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147619 | ||
Wow - it is amazing to here some comments. Did Jesus not teach that Jews are no better than Gentiles - YES !!! How are laws (supposedly only given to Jews but actually Isaiah refutes this as I have already shown) not good also for Gentiles. I know you say "we should rest from our labours" - and I do agree. But explain what we would be doing on this day. Could it be worshiping God and thanking Him for this beautiful world in which we can rest and enjoy the beauty and relaxing scenery. I do not know how you can say the 4th commandment is not a command by God. And by the way, When the rich young rules came to Jesus to ask Him about the law - Jesus clearly repeated commands of the 10 commandments. But again Steve we can argue this to the death but scipture cannot give two answers because God is a consistent and clear God. Either the Sabbath can be any day of the week, no day of the week, the 7th or the 1st. I tend to rely on consistency and scriptural evidence that clearly says it was created in the beginning - God clearly punished by death for not keeping it. Pretty stong support to me that I cannot relying on what I had been taught and assumed was the truth for many years of my life. Again --- Math. 15:3 1 John 2:4 What is the duty of Man -- Ecc. 12:13 Please take my points in love, Merv |
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55 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147627 | ||
Ed: Glad we can debate these issues in love. I am not tangled up but rather getting untangled from what I was taught from tradition instead of from accurate, contextual, and consistent scripture. I think I would rather base my beliefs and doctrines on exactly what Jesus did and the disciples did. As I stated their "custom" was they went to the synagogue. How come in Isaiah God said that non-jews could keep the sabbath and the covenant and been in right relationship with God. Could it be that is was law which determined men of God. Guess not. Relying again on 3-4 verses of 1st day references is just not good sound fundamental scriptural interpretation. We must have consistency from God from beginning to end. Got a question: Why was Sabbath made at the beginning before sin ? God could have created it at Sinai. BUT WAIT !!! Actually God tested Israel prior to Sinai and "law" being given. I guess he must have given it earlier that Sinai. Humm Gen.26:5 could actully mean God had His laws in place for man once created. Which would remarkedly be consistent with the creation of the Sabbath. Ya - I agree the Roman Catholic Church was not "really" corupt. Killing and persecuting was something taught by Jesus for the early Church to follow. Sorry for being sarcastic !!! You see the problem created by forcing priests to not have sex and get married is the molestation of children. Many of the popes were actually in the past were actually bastard children from the sexual relations outside of marriage. I would be good to study in detail Daniel and Revelation together to grasp who the beast symbols are in history. I do not at all condemn people in the Catholic denomination but God clearly teaches that is the last days He call people out of Babylon. We are all accountable for our own personal decisions and not acting when we are moved by the truth of the Holy Spirit. Look forward to more discussions, Merv |
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56 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147633 | ||
Steve: Thanks for the responses !! I pray all find the truth !!! Merv |
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57 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 147636 | ||
Ok thanks - my email is swervtmp@hotmail.com | ||||||
58 | Hank - Doctrine from God or Man ? | Bible general Archive 2 | swerv | 149398 | ||
Hi Mark: No I do not believe salvation is gained / lost over and over. I think scripture is clear that God will look at the evidence of our faith to see if is right in the eyes of God. God is the only judge !! Our obedience reflects our love. If no obedience or heart of change then how do we say the Holy Spirit is leading us to follow Christ. Intentional sins reveal our hearts condition. God is not concerned about a certain repentive time in our lives - but rather a heart that reflects Christ's example. The Bible clealy teaches that many many Christians will call on God but He will say He does not know them. Of course the time we repent is a great day but if it is not followed up by the earnest desire to obey God then what was the repenting a beginning of ? In love, Merv |
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59 | Diet and Sabbath of the Lord | OT general | swerv | 145952 | ||
The diet of God and Sabbath of the Lord are to be followed out of obedience of love for God. These laws were given to mankind for their benefit. The Sabbath was instituted prior to sin and the clean/unclean diet was given to Noah. Noah took 7 clean animals and only 2 unclean animals into the ark for the very reason of having food when they left the ark. Only 2 unclean because they would not be eating them. | ||||||
60 | Pagan doctrines are in the Church !!!! | NT general Archive 1 | swerv | 145953 | ||
Why does the Christian community not face reality that the basic doctines have come from paganized Christianity. Issues such as eternal hell, Sabbath, clean/unclean foods, and prophecy have all been corupted by man and are at the foundation of many unbiblical doctrines of the Church. | ||||||
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