Results 21 - 40 of 71
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Results from: Notes Author: jg8ball Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | jg8ball | 1532 | ||
I'd love to respond with love and compassion but when the people that respond don't answer the questions or take parts of it and twist it around, it really gets frustrating. Sorry if that offends you but your response to my initital posting to you was just as offensive (if not more) to me. In retrospect, I probably should have been a little nicer when I pointed out that you did not answer my question but instead chose to pull a piece of it out and twist it around. It's just that it happens so often when talking about election. | ||||||
22 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | jg8ball | 1533 | ||
Bottom line. Our views differ on what the term election means and who God chose. If I understand you correctly, you believe that God chose certain people that could be saved (and therefore chose certain people that could not be saved). The people that God chose to be saved are the Elect. I'm not sure if you believe all the Elect will be saved or if only some of the Elect will be saved though. I believe that God offered EVERYONE the opportunity to be saved. Jesus died for the sins of everyone - past, present, and future. I also believe that God wants us to accept His gift by choosing for ourselves to believe in His son. Those that choose to believe are the elect talked about in the Bible. God predestined his plan of salvation and this plan was that EVERYONE could be saved if they believed. Will everyone be saved? NO. Can people do good deeds to get into Heaven? NO. It is only through faith that a person can be saved - ANY person. We all start out the same. It's not until we choose to believe in the Lord that we are separated from this world and united through Christ. How can you read the Bible and interpret that God would choose to save only some people and not others and do this by making us puppets? What sense does it make to beleive that God wants us to worship and love Him and also believe that He choses who will do that? I'm sorry, but God chooses that we ALL worship and love Him, but because He loves us so much, does not want to force us, but rather choose for ourselves. I'm not sure if you have children, but would you rather force them to love you or would you rather have them want to love you for themselves? |
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23 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | jg8ball | 1577 | ||
You actually believe (as an analogy) that God wrote this big book and we are the characters in that book unable to express our own thoughts and wills but rather follow the script that God wrote? I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that analogy. You mentioned the people in Noah's day. How does this hold up with your beliefs? Did God only "choose" Noah and his family as elect and realized that he didn't choose enough "good" people so he wiped out everyone else and started over or did He wipe out other Elect people? You also mentioned other people in the OT that God directly influenced. I do believe that God will "override" our will when necessary to see that his plan comes to pass. God predestined his plan of salvation for us. He wants us all to be saved and has made a provision for that through Jesus Christ. He wants us to love Him, not by His will, but by our own will. If you want to relate it to something, then a play would be a better example than a book. In this play, God created the opening characters and the setting for these characters to live. He also created a rough story line to follow but then gave these characters the abilty to "ad-lib" so that He could sit back and watch. Every once in a while, He'll throw in a plot twist or two or may guide a character a certain way to see that His ending is met. He's also there to help any character that asks for it. I admit it's not the best analogy, but It's not easy to incorporate God into something as simple as an author of a literary piece (other than the Bible). Finally, yes, I'd like to be a puppet (in the good sense), but I'd also like world peace, no hunger, no disease, etc... but that's just not the way I see that God works. I doubt that I'll ever be able to change your mind, and admit that you probably won't change my mind but I have been tring to see how you can interpret the way you do but just can't seem to agree with it. All I see is that you have taken a few verses out of the bible and interpreted the whole bible based on those verses, very similar to how the Jehovah Witnesses developed their understanding of the bible. When I interpret the bible, I try to use the whole bible and determine how it fits. If it seems contradictory, then I look at who the author was writing to, other things the writer had written, reference to OT that writer may have used and how that relates. When Paul is talking about the "Elect" and "God chose us" and "God foreknew us", he's talking to believers. These people can be called that because they have already chosen to follow Jesus. Paul was "building" these people up, encouraging them, reminding them what it means to be a follower of Christ. He was letting them know that God knew of his plan of salvation through Jesus from the beginning of time and that since they chose to accept Jesus into their hearts, they too are part of His plan. To imply that God's plan was to only select certain people to be saved and the others not to be saved is ridiculous. God may have hardened Pharoahs heart (or anyone elses) but did not prevent them from being repentent in the end. And finally, if you still believe that God chose only His "Elect" to be saved and that all the "Elect" will be saved because they cannot refuse the will of God, then how do you explain Jesus' words that it's harder for a rich man to go to heaven? |
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24 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | jg8ball | 1594 | ||
First of all there is no biblical evidence of what happend to Pharoah. You cannot assume one way or the other. Yes, there is a posibiity that Pharoah's realized the power of God and repented. The opposite is also possible. There is no sin to great for God to forgive. Just because God hardened his heart does not mean he was damned. It just means that he had to use Pharoah to demonstrate the great power of God to both the Egyptians and the Isrealites. What happened after the Sea of Reeds is not stated in the Bible (that I'm aware of). Egyptian history may offer some clue but that really doesn't matter. |
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25 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | jg8ball | 1596 | ||
I wish I had the time to show you verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book why I believe God's plan of salvation is for EVERYONE that chooses to believe in Jesus and that EVERYONE is capable of making that choice if they honestly believe. Unfortunately not everyone will make that choice. I believe those people are too caught up in the world or may have known some "Christians" and decided that if that's how they act I'd rather not join or several other excuses. I leave you with this to ponder (please read it carefully): Luke 14:16-24: Jesus replied: "A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' "But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' "Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' "Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' "The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' "'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' "Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.'" |
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26 | Why won't Calvinists answer directly??? | Job 38:1 | jg8ball | 1689 | ||
We can end this conversation now. In your small mind (compared to God's of course) you seem to know exactly how God works. I sometimes wish I could be so blind and assume that there is only one possible interpretation of the Bible. Have a good day and try to enjoy God's gift. |
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27 | Question not answered..... any help? | Mark 16:16 | jg8ball | 40147 | ||
From a Christian (and believer) standpoint, I completely agree. From a non-believer standpoint, I'd have to disagree. I could always say that the NT writers new the OT prophecies and fabricated a story to fit. NOTE: I don't believe this to be the case but would have a hard time convincing someone that did. While it's ok to study the Bible, I think God would like us to spend at least as much (if not much more) time getting His message to those that need it. Luke, I believe, is a person that needs to know the message. The message isn't trying to prove one interpretation over another, it's that God loves him and wants him. Once he's a believer (if that's the path he chooses) and he then decides to debate the various parts of the Bible, then so be it. That's just my thought. Others will probably disagree and that's ok too. |
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28 | Can a believer lose his salvation? | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 252 | ||
This verse does not imply that once you are saved you are always saved. Jesus says if you come to Him, He will not cast you out. It does not say that the person will still be saved if they renounce their salvation. | ||||||
29 | How do you then interpret the verses... | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 358 | ||
Thank you for the list of Calvinistic views (I've seen them several times now). What I'm wondering though is why you (or other Calvinists) will not discuss what I've submitted earlier. Instead, all I ever get is the same list of verses which when taken out of context point to what you would have me believe. I have looked at this from your viewpoint and tried to see how it fits in. I've even talked with a person from my church (which happens to have many calvinists) but have found too many holes in the theory. If you can offer any sound evidence I would like to hear it. Also, have you actually read the verses in context (that is -- not just the verses but the whole chapter, or better yet the books they reside in) or is this just what someone has told you is right and that was good enough for you? I don't mean to sound harsh but what I'm getting at (and this may or may not apply to you) is that you have to read the Word for yourself. Be open to different interpretations. Pray about it. Look at who the book was written to or for. Look at what the author says in other areas. Decide for yourself if what you have been taught is accurate. Be willing to question your beliefs if you find something contradictary to what the Bible teaches. A good example of this is a friend of mine that was raised a Jehovahs Witness. After showing him parts of the Bible and having him look at it from different view points, he's finding inconsistancies with what he was taught. |
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30 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 463 | ||
Do you actually believe what you wrote? I said God's plan of salvation was predestined. That is, He knew it was going to happen and it will happen no matter what. However, individuals are not predestined to be saved. God wants all to be saved but knows that not all will accept his gift of Grace. God's Will will succeed no matter what man may do. 1 Tim 2:1-7 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. Please keep the verses you spout off in context. I have showed you many verses (in context) that talk about our choice and have showed you your verses (in context) that either have nothing to do with what you are using them for or could also be interpreted as free will. I have not seen one verse (taken in context) that says otherwise. Don't you wonder why there are so many verses that talk about "Free Will" and that the only verses Calvinists come up with are taken out of context and based on a faulty premise or that you have to twist the words of non-calvinists to imply things that were not stated? Please read the entire bible. Not just the verses that, on the surface, seem to fit you interpretation. Eph 2:1-2 - The "dead in transgressions and sin" is not a literal term. How could he be talking to them if they were dead? What he's telling the Ephesians is how they are no longer following the ways of the world (they are dead to those ways) but are now saved through the Grace of God in Jesus Christ. Later in that same chapter he tells us that the Gentiles used to be separte from God are now included in the promise of being saved through Jesus. As I stated previously: You mentioned John 6:44. I agree that no sinner can make the first move in the salvation process. Fortunately, God has already made the first move through Jesus. It's now up to us to accept this. Also, if you put John 6:44 in context and read the entire section, you'll see a whole different meaning. John 6:38-40 - tells us that Jesus is sent to do the Father's will which is that EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life. John 6:44 in simply saying that no one is going to Heaven unless God Allows it. God wants everyone to be saved (this is backed up by other verses I'll supply if needed). John 6:45 "...EVERYONE who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." It doesn't say "only those I choose will come to me" John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life." John 6:51 "...This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." He's saying that he will give his life for the world, not a elect group in the world. Another example, read the parable of the Lost Sheep. God didn't want any to be lost. If you need more verses about All having the opportinity for salvation, let me know. To close on, did Jesus die for everyone's sins or just some of the people? |
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31 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 470 | ||
Sorry, I thought I answered your questions. Please let me know what questions I haven't answered. By the way, I have posted may questions (and verses) asking how you would interpret them and have not received any answers. I do see that you are good at turning things around to fit what you want. Spiritually dead does not mean that a person cannot choose God. It simply means that that person is currently in a state that is not open to God. Take for example a "morally bankrupt" person or a person without morals. That doesn't mean that the person cannot choose to change his behavior to be a better person. The same goes for the Spiritally dead person. If that person hears about what Jesus can offer, they could choose to listen and believe. Yes, I'm fully aware of the meanings of "predestined" and "omniscience". I also understand that you are misapplying the term predestined to individuals being predestined rather than the correct interpretation that God's plan was predestined. The term "Elect" you mentioned somewhere is just another way of saying the believers. (today, we call them the "born-again" for example.) Also, I seriously looked into the Calvinistic belief and have talked with a "Calvinistic elder" at my church to try and see their views. Instead of just relying on what they said though, I researched the topic myself using the bible and the internet looking at it from various viewpoints (including that of the JW's). I'm sorry to say that I could not find a valid reason for interpreting the bible using the "Calvinistic Belief" or the JW's. |
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32 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 506 | ||
I see that you are the typical brainwashed person that only believes what he has been told and is afraid to examine the evidence for yourself. If you'd bother to check the previous postings you would find that I did in fact answer your questions and showed you how your took your passages out of context to twist them to your way of thinking. I also noticed that you completely disregarded most of my questions and passages that talk very explicitly about "free will". You say that you answered my verses (actually there God's verses) by arguing that mere verses are insufficient and must be accompanied by the use of Scripture as a whole in context. I showed you your verses in context and how they have nothing to do with what you pretend to be accurate. You however have not shown me A SINGLE interpretation of one of the verses I listed about how God wants all to be saved, how it's our choice to accept the Gift of Grace that God offered, how it could be possible to renounce your salvation. And as far as you saying that I have not thought much about the issues you raised could not be farther from the truth. That's the problem. I have thought a lot about the Calvinistic issues and have found that if you ignore the majority of the bible, then it holds up. Calvinists seem to think that since the Bible doesn't use the term "Free Will" then it must not exist. Unfortunatly, you also miss all the examples (new and old testiment) that talk about it as our choice. God didn't put puppets here on earth, he put living, breathing, thinking humans here that would by their own human will choose to worship Him. You would have us believe that God created us and decided who would worship him. I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way when I read the Bible and all the things it says. Of course, my bible is more than just a few verses from Ephesians and Romans. May God open your eyes and heart so that you may continue to grow. |
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33 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 80885 | ||
God loves us (everyone) whether we are saved or not - and nothing will or can stop Him from loving us - not even principalities. I'm not as strong in my opinion as to whether once saved always saved is true as I am in that God has put into motion a plan for salvation that EVERYONE can choose this plan to be saved. I don't believe that God has selected only a few ELECT people to have the opportunity to be saved. But back to once saved always saved. If that was true, why then all the warnings to guard your salvation? You mentioned Peter - What if he didn't repent but ran away instead? Same for Saul - What if he said "Hey, I'd rather be blind than to promote that Jesus thing."? God gave us the ability to choose for ourselves the path we take. While it's true that no one can take our salvation away from us, I just see to many examples in the bible that imply that we (being human) may choose to deny it and fall away - for whatever extreme reason. Some would argue that they were never saved in the first place. I would then ask those people how they know that they are truly saved then? My faith grows the more I realize that I need God. I understand (and am fully aware) that I'm not perfect and I do sin and maybe even sometimes run away from God - but I know that God still loves me and calls me His own. I'm still saved. I have always come back and never ever thought about rejecting God. But what about those people that walked and talked the path to God thru Jesus, accepted Him fully, was baptized, attended church and church funtions, witnessed to others, etc... but later because of maybe a loss of children or spouse or maybe over time because he though that he could not lose his salvation became stagnant and fell into the ways of the world and forgot about God over time and then died. Are they still saved? Truely - only God knows for sure. Keep in mind that these are my interpretations of what I read and studied from the Bible. Why we have so many different views - I don't know. All I know for sure is that God loved us so much that if He didn't do something to get us back on track we were going to end up in a big mess again. The only thing He could do that would get through our thick skulls (although some still refuse to believe) is to to become human and show us who God really is and what it really means to serve Him. Jesus died for us once and for all as a final sacrifice for our sins. No more pigeon killing. No more slaughtering of Lambs. Jesus is our new convenant with God - and just to prove it God raised Jesus so that many would witness and spread the truth so that we too would hear it through the written word. Now that I've written way more than planned, I'll end. I hope I didn't ramble on too much and sorry if I did. |
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34 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 80893 | ||
Hey Joe - long time no write. If you remember, I've answered your questions before but if you want me to, I'll do so again. To answer the new questions: --Luke 22:31-32 Jesus prayed to God that Peter be given the strength not too lose his faith (seems to imply that you can lose your faith) but it was still Peter's choice what to do with that strength. Fortunately, he accepted it and repented. We're also taught to pray specifically and as if it has already been accepted. Just as Jesus did here. --Acts 9:15-16. Yes, God chose Saul/Paul to be His instrument and because Time doesn't exist for God as it does for us, He knew that Saul would accept the mission. If Saul would have refused, I think God would have found someone else and we'd be reading about that person instead. God gave us the ability to choose our own paths. Some choose good, some bad. He wants us to choose to love Him. He doesn't want us to be "programmed" to love him automatically. Would you rather have your kids choose to love you or would you rather force them to love you (kind of like Saddam)? |
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35 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 80904 | ||
I believe you're in category (b) because you choose to accept God's gift of salvation and not because God implanted in you the idea that that's the only choice you have. Why must you diminish God's free gift to all by spouting that His gift is only for the few Elect and that other people are destined to Hell and have no chance of salvation? Why can't you see that when they talk about the Elect in the Bible, they are referring to Belivers? Why can't you see that the predestination mentioned is that, thru Jesus, all people will have access to the Kingdom of God? I assume you too have read thru the bible many times (specifically the NT) looking at what the bible is actually saying and basing your interpretations on that and not on what you've been taught by others. And when doing so, you've been brave enough to question beliefs that may differ from what you've previously thought and investigate those differences until you find a solution that incorporates the bible as a whole - posibly even changing your views. If so, then maybe God has a reason for both of us to have differing viewpoints because I have done so and still find the Elect theory to be very flawed. Maybe my eyes are just closed for some reason but until God shows me where my interpretations are wrong, I have to stick with what He's shown me so far. I wish we could actually get together sometime and sitdown for a day or 10 and pray and study the scripture together. I think we would both come out enlightened. Your friend in Christ, John |
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36 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 80933 | ||
I'm sorry to hear about your mother's passing. I'm going thru a somewhat similar problem now. My father has only a few weeks left (cancer) and thinks he is going to heaven because he went to church when he was a kid. He doesn't want anything to do with church now and does not want to talk about it. I even bought him the two Left Behind movies hoping that would spark something but he refuses to watch them. He thinks he's made his peace with God because he allowed a chruch chaplin to pray for him. I've been asked not to talk about it with him anymore. All I can do is leave it in God's hands and pray that He reaches him somehow before it's too late. Jesus did say that many will call his name but only few will be let in. I believe this to be all the "Christians" out there, like my dad, that feel that they are "saved" because they used to attend church, or their family is saved so I must be also, or say that I attend church every week so I must be saved - but the rest of the week, they forget all about Jesus. I think these people really believe they are saved but may find out otherwise when they stand before God. I think a lot of this could be prevented if all the churches had the guts to preach the full gospel - at least once in a while. (I'm not saying that they should preach fire and brimstone sermons but more explain what Jesus's death and resurrection meant for us today, how we need God's love and guidance, and how we need to live that life in today's world.) |
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37 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 80940 | ||
Thanks! I may just have to print that out and hang it on my wall. | ||||||
38 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 81022 | ||
You'll probably be banned from this forum :) |
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39 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 81023 | ||
No. He's not a Catholic. He was raised Baptist as a child - but I don't really know how often he attend church back then. He doesn't like to talk about it - now and before he had cancer. He claims to have his own God - one that allows getting drunk and watching porn. | ||||||
40 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 81034 | ||
J. I assume this was meant for "Searcher". I'm on your side here. My comment that you will probably be banned was meant as a joke. You are absolutely correct when you said that there are too many legalistic (factual) people that have to tear apart everything you say - even when you were talking (writing) to me about my father. I think a lot of people (myself included at times) forget about Jesus' love and look to the bible as our God. I'm sorry to say (actually I'm glad) that the bible is not God. It's merely a tool used to help us learn about who God really is. Like any tool, it can be abused to the point where it loses it's functionality. --John Green |
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