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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | is tounges a sign of holyghost | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 131814 | ||
Doc Okay we have established the fact that tongues in one form or another did function from the early church to the present. You used Montanism as your first example and made it appear that tongues was the problem with the teaching however that by fact was not the problem. The problem was “Montanus encouraged his followers to consider themselves as the elect of God and to prepare for the Second Coming by separation from the world, fasting, prayer, and the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit. Montanists placed special emphasis on ecstatic prophecy, and Montanus described himself as a prophet. They welcomed persecution, so that the church would be purified and made a fit bride for the coming bridegroom. From the beginning the sect was persecuted by the official church, and by 220 it was proscribed. The Synod of Iconium refused to recognize the validity of Montanist baptism. Thereupon, it went underground but continued to be active for many centuries.” Kurian, G. T. (2001). Nelson's new Christian dictionary : The authoritative resource on the Christian world. Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Pubs. To summarize they added to scripture thus forcing the issue of the closed cannon that was the objection to Montanism. Then you gave us a lot of if's and if not's. By that I mean you state the is no verifiable church fathers who attests to speaking in tongues then you mention Irenaeus did say he knew people that spoke in tongues. As you say we move on and to the middle ages and many mystical things happened there as if to say if it happened it was magic and not of God. But can we really say that? Especially when we talk to nations evangelized by early missionaries that were able to converse with the natives yet their language was at that time unknown. Let us not linger here and move on. Next we come to the 1500 and a man that seems to have a verifiable account but we will sort of dismiss it. Okay Then we move to early American history and you make a statement that Pilgrim fathers, Puritan leaders, Baptist preachers, Presbyterian divines, and Methodist laymen did not at all indulge in these practices. And that is simply not true read denominational history many times they did and this caused conflict in the denominations. Methodist more than the others openly accepted it but the practice died a natural death a few decades later. Your last statement, “It continues to predominate outside of orthodox Christian circles.” Clearly shows the bias of the material you were using. Pentecostalism has been declared orthodox by those that make those decisions. More over there are well over 75 million adherents to the practice world wide. The Assemblies of God have alone has 50 million members. Again many adherents to the practice do so from the experience of having missionaries visit them that could not speak their language yet when the missionary preached the word of God these people clearly heard and understood them. Now you might say this is undocumented but there are written testimonies on record of such incidents, they are verifiable if you want to travel to a one of these nations and interview the people. Once again we know speaking in tongues is authentic as seen in the New Testament, we also know that one day it will pass away, the hinge to the whole thing is “when the perfect comes”. Since we do see some tongues used today to glorify God and Jesus assured us the adversary wouldn’t do that, as a house divided would soon fall, then we must assume the perfect has not yet come. If we believe the inverse then the perfect has come and all present day tongues are counterfeit from the adversary. And since they give often give glory to God then we must assume Jesus was wrong when He said the adversary wouldn’t do that. Seems we have a problem. EdB |
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2 | is tounges a sign of holyghost | Bible general Archive 2 | warsaw | 131820 | ||
Ed, I respect everyone’s beliefs. I don’t understand some people’s predisposition to either “prove” or “disprove” speaking in tongues. What is the purpose of speaking in tongues? (1 Corinthians 14:22 ) If “speaking in tongues” still occurs today, then there is no need for a discussion as to “if”. Anyone that doubts it can go a Full Gospel church and witness it. They can witness what has been discussed and decide for themselves. Doesn’t the Bible tell us that the Holy Spirit will instruct us? (John 14:26) If “tongues” is in fact still occurring today, then I rejoice to the mere thought of it. It would be glorious to hear someone speak in tongues, but what would be even more glorious is to hear the new prophecies that the Lord is sending us. I have discussed this topic many times over the years. Each group used the same scriptures to prove their position on the matter. It’s the nature of mankind. We tend to have our beliefs and bend what we read to fit into our beliefs. I will not denounce either school of thought on the matter. In either case, I live by faith not by sight. (2 Corinthians 1:7) I thank the Lord for the sacrifice He made for me on the cross. While I wasn’t there that day I still know what I read to be true. I am thankful that the Holy Sprit dwells within me, instructs me, and comforts me daily. Your brother in Christ, Mike |
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3 | is tounges a sign of holyghost | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 131830 | ||
Mike Your right! And I usually avoid such decisions but I got involved in this because someone asked if it was true you had to speak in tongues to be saved. I responded that was a false teaching. And from there I have been getting drawn in. Let me make one thing very clear, going to a church and witnessing the whole church speak in tongues does not validate the speaking in tongues. What validates it is the New Testament and in particular the Book of Acts where we see it actually occurring. The question then becomes did has it ceased and what is occurring now is nothing more than a emotional display by deceived people or is the practice in fact genuine and still used to draw people to salvation? As I stated experience is not proof as we can be deceived. So we have to look elsewhere for proof. First we see in 1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. The implication here is when the perfect comes tongues will cease. Now what is the perfect? We have no real idea. Some say it was the closing of the cannon others say it Jesus’ second coming, others have other opinions. Since we can’t prove if tongues have ceased or not let us see their usage. 1 Cor 14:22 (NASB) So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. Here we see it as a sign to unbelievers. Now how is that manifested again let us go to Acts 2:6 (NASB) And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. So we see tongues were used to convey the truth of God to people in their own language and to give glory to God. Now if we see that occurring today what can we say? It is a genuine manifestation of God or that it is a counterfeit from the adversary. Let’s see what Jesus said when they accused Him of being of Satan. Matt 12:25-26 (NASB) And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? Okay if it is of Satan it will be used to drive people away from God but if it is of God it will be used to draw people to God. Okay! What are the effects of tongues on the lives of people? Well we have written verifiable testimonies of people that spoke only one language listening to a speaker speaking only in yet another language yet they heard them preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified in their language and that message of salvation made them repent and accept Jesus as Lord of their lives and Savior of their souls. So I think we can say in some cases it causes people to come to God through the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Therefore we see tongues being used exactly as seen in Acts, to accomplish exactly what Paul in Corinthians said it would accomplish, yet there are those that say not so it is a work of Satan. Yet they ignore what Jesus told us, Satan will not use anything that draws people to God or else his house would be divided and would surely fall. Therefore we are left with a decision. Either tongue are for today or the perfect has come and tongues have ceased. When we view the evidence I think the answer is obvious or at least it is to me. EdB |
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