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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Can I help you? | Bible general Archive 2 | Hank | 126775 | ||
Stultis the Fool: Thanks for asking me if you can help me in any way. It was a kind gesture, but off-hand I can't think of any way that you could help me. By the way, how do you feel that I need help, and why might you think you're able to help me? (If I think of any way you can help, I'll be sure to let you know.) .......... I do have a few comments about your post. In it you say, "Jesus chose appropriately, and Grace was not yet with us when he did so." What does this mean? .......... You say, "...free will plays the most important role." I'm at a loss to find a scriptural reference for this. Where does the Bible mention man's "free will" and where does it say that man's free will plays the most important role -- in anything? ....... You say, "We have every capacity to choose between right and wrong." Where does the Bible teach this? ....... Did you read the 13 passages of Scripture that I submitted to you in my former post? Did you study them? Do you believe them? Would you care to comment on whether you read them and what effect, if any, they have on your thinking about man's sinful condition. Let's stick with what Scripture says. My opinion, precious soul, is worthless -- as worthless as any other man's. God's word is the only thing that counts, for it is priceless. Adieu. --Hank | ||||||
2 | Can I help you? | Bible general Archive 2 | Stultis the Fool | 126784 | ||
The Law of Moses was created to identify sin, and as a guide that we should not sin. Are you implying that God created the Law and then gave man no capacity to understand or keep it, even though he promises that if we keep it we will live? Free will is evident throughout the bible, and was the defining factor in Adam's sin. God told Adam to not eat the fruit. Adam chose to disobey (albeit after temptation). When it comes to sin, freewill DOES play the most important role. We are given the capacity to discern evil (the Law, the Spirit), as well as the capacity to master sin by mastering our flesh by walking after the spirit. We see the same thing evidenced again when Cain killed Abel. God came to Cain when he was angry at his brother and told him sin was crouching at his door. At that time, Cain could most certainly have chosen a righteous path (like Abel, or Abraham), but instead, he chose to murder his brother. I have read the scriptures you present, and each identifies well man's persistance in sin, and his sinful nature. However, for brevities sake, let us consider just one of them, representative of the rest, here Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Paul also tells us in Romans 7:7, "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Again, lust is identified with sin, and lust is temptation. A child cannot be tempted with what he does not comprehend. I hear and understand and agree with man's sinful nature, even that he is created with a sinful nature, and this is the corruption that is inherrent to the flesh. However, this still does not quantify as "sin," which is a falling short of the mark. Again, Christ gives us the example of small children, proclaiming that we must become as they are. How can Christ attribute them so if they have fallen short of the mark? Also, when I say "Grace was not yet with us," I refer to the fact that the old covenant had not yet passed away, and that God's Law was not yet written on our hearts, and that Christ had not yet perished for our sins, and thus there was as yet no propitiation and as such no salvation by Grace through faith. Christ still made the correct choices regarding sin, despite his walk in the corrupt flesh of man. Again, I wish to point out that I advocate "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," and I advocate Christ as Lord, as the Lamb of God and propitiation for our sins, but I do not advocate the birth of children with "sin." It is most definately safe to say that we are all born in a body of flesh desiring for sin, but it is innapropriate to attribute "sin" where there is none. This is wholly incorrect. Sin is the result of choice. we do not sin "accidentaly," else the words of God would be of none effect in 1 Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Now, I have made a number of posts regarding this subject, and I have backed my argument with scripture. While many have shown me definitive scripture attesting to mans sinful nature, noone has shown me any scripture proffessing God created man not only of a corruptable body, but WITH sin. I have indicated many scriptures that indicate this is not true. Again, I most certainly accept man's sinful nature, but I can find no scripture that states unequivocaly that the particular sin of Adam, or anyone else for that matter, rests on all our shoulders; I have, however, shown scripture that states we must answer for none but our own sin. |
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3 | Can I help you? | Bible general Archive 2 | Hank | 126793 | ||
OK, Stultis the Fool, I'll give you Scripture that states unequivocally that the sin of Adam rests on all our shoulders: "Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all men sinner...therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's (Jesus Christ) righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12,18,19). ....... What the problem seems to be is that you, so it appears, do not believe and are fighting against the orthodox doctrine of original sin. I do believe it, not because I necessarily like it (what would it matter whether I like it or not? Who am I question God's word?), but because the Bible teaches it. It is therefore true. It is no less true whether I like it, dislike it, believe it, or disbelieve it. [This subject, by the way, is deep and vast, and encompasses much more than can be treated of on a Forum like this. Perhaps you may wish to search out and study some good treaties on systematic theology, one of the prime subjects of which is the doctrine of the fall and orignal sin.] ...... It is much more fruitful to engage in a serious study of systematic theology than to play Forum ping-pong by batting isolated Scriptures back and forth to each other :-) It may be fun and good sport, but aside from that it really doesn't do much good. Blessings to you. I see no reason to think that you are not searching for God's truth, and so, for that matter, am I -- a continuing search that began 55 years ago! --Hank | ||||||
4 | Can I help you? | Bible general Archive 2 | Stultis the Fool | 126802 | ||
Hank, Thank you for the excellent reply. I obviously see those scriptures differently than you. I certainly understand why you believe what you believe, and I hate to dismiss this topic simply because of the "limitaitons" of this forum. Regarding Romans 5:12, it is easy for me to understand that "through one man, sin entered the world." After all, someone had to sin first, right? However, I will point out that all that applies to is the introduction of sin. Just like through one God Man entered the world. Man wasn't here, and then he was. Seems to me to be the same case with sin in 9:12. 5:18 is similar, sin was here, so God passed judgement, where there was none before. Gods judgement concluded all had transgressed the Law (transgression; an act, not an accident or happenstance), and thus came condemnation. Besides, we have a just God, and where there is sin there must also be justice (reap what you so, etc.). 5:19 The one man's disobedience was directly linked to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. With knowledge of good and evil comes the capacity for sin (the Law tells us so). With the Law, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is not to hard to swallow that we are all "sinners." I must point out again that original sin directly contradicts Ezekial 18:18 through 18:20 as well as 1 Corinthians 10:13, and a number of other versus I have brought up in posts on this thread. Now, we know that God isn't going to contradict himself (same yesterday, today, etc.), so there must be a rational explanation for this contradiction. If man is brought into this world of a corruptable flesh with a sinful nature, well, there is a fine, scriptural explanation for this seeming ambiguity. Otherwise, I am unsure of how to explain the situation. I will point out again that, due to obvious contradiction, "original sin" cannot be the answer. As far as "orthodoxy" goes, I will gladly point out that just because something has been taught for a long time does not make it correct. We don't need to look very far to see this in application (wether secular or religious). |
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