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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 90116 | ||
Dear NC, I'm not moved by loud protestations either. Our problem is that many sincere believers, after having studied the whole of Scripture, have arrived at a different conclusion which is that those spoken of as departing the faith, have done so because they were mere professers. I will say that your position is consistant with 5 point arminianism. A view that sees man as the master of his own fate and the captain of his own soul. If you are correct, your position will harmonize with the entire written Word. Please show how the clay became the potter, and moulded himself into a vessel for destruction. John has clearly stated that those who departed were never "of us". 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. John |
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2 | "Both of these positions have problems" | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank_Jr | 90138 | ||
John, I found this study note on the Net Bible. What do you think about "Both of these positions have problems" as stated below? He does not wish for any to perish. This verse has been a battleground between Arminians and Calvinists. The former argue that God wants all people to be saved, but either through inability or restriction of his own sovereignty does not interfere with peoples’ wills. Some of the latter argue that the “any” here means “any of you” and that all the elect will repent before the return of Christ, because this is God’s will. Both of these positions have problems. The “any” in this context means “any of you.” (This can be seen by the dependent participle which gives the reason why the Lord is patient “toward you.”) There are hints throughout this letter that the readership may be mixed, including both true believers and others who are “sitting on the fence” as it were. But to make the equation of this readership with the elect is unlikely. This would seem to require, in its historical context, that all of these readers would be saved. But not all who attend church know the Lord or will know the Lord. Simon the Magician, whom Peter had confronted in Acts 8, is a case in point. This is evident in contemporary churches when a pastor addresses the congregation as “brothers, sisters, saints, etc.,” yet concludes the message with an evangelistic appeal. When an apostle or pastor addresses a group as “Christian” he does not necessarily think that every individual in the congregation is truly a Christian. Thus, the literary context seems to be against the Arminian view, while the historical context seems to be against (one representation of) the Calvinist view. The answer to this conundrum is found in the term “wish” (a participle in Greek from the verb boulomai). It often represents a mere wish, or one’s desiderative will, rather than one’s resolve. Unless God’s will is viewed on the two planes of his desiderative and decretive will (what he desires and what he decrees), hopeless confusion will result. The scriptures amply illustrate both that God sometimes decrees things that he does not desire and desires things that he does not decree. It is not that his will can be thwarted, nor that he has limited his sovereignty. But the mystery of God’s dealings with humanity is best seen if this tension is preserved. Otherwise, either God will be perceived as good but impotent or as a sovereign taskmaster. Here the idea that God does not wish for any to perish speaks only of God's desiderative will, without comment on his decretive will. |
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3 | "Both of these positions have problems" | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 90144 | ||
Dear Hank Jr., Welcome to the Forum! 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. "patient toward you". "You" are those also called "beloved". This is a very strong indication that Paul has true believers in view. Assuming that there are weeds amongst the wheat does not alter the fact that the "beloved" are the elect. Elsewhere Paul has exhorted his audience to search their hearts to be certain of their calling and election. It is clear (at least to me) that the message is for believers alone. Paul knows already that the natural man is incapable of discerning spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14) so I see no need for him to point out the distinction between the two groups. "But the mystery of God’s dealings with humanity is best seen if this tension is preserved. Otherwise, either God will be perceived as good but impotent or as a sovereign taskmaster. Here the idea that God does not wish for any to perish speaks only of God's desiderative will, without comment on his decretive will." THe conclusion reached by the writer is worse than weak. It is meaningless! What does God care what people's perceptions are anyway. And after having presented the gospel, why should christians wring their hands over the blasphemies spewed from those who who are perishing. Yes we should plead with them and shed tears, pray for God's grace in their behalf. But merely presenting God as one that reflects their own values saves no one. They will simply find another rationalization for despising Him. John Reformed |
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4 | "Both of these positions have problems" | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank_Jr | 90154 | ||
Thanks John for the welcome and I respect your opinion, I have been a part of this forum for a while but only as a reader (I am quick to listen and slow to speak:-)). I find this forum some times informative and some times humorous. Where do I stand with Arminians vs. Calvinists?? I lean more towards Calvinists but not fully. (I still have more studding to do.) If we are saved then we produce good fruit right? God has given us a wonderful and glorious gift, Jesus Christ. “by grace you have been saved” Romans 11:6 (ESV) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. Ephes. 2:4-10 (ESV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” Look at “For by grace you have been saved” It is because of grace that we are saved not of works. No amount of works can save someone only grace. Look at “through faith.” What is faith? Look at the book of James: James 2:15-18 (ESV) If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [16] and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? [17] So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [18] But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. It is by grace through faith. James 2:24 (ESV) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. We believe, we have faith and because of our faith we produce fruits “works”, our “works” are depended on faith and faith is depended on works. So with out one or the other it is dead. “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” So the question is, if you do not have “works” then how can you have “faith”? And if you do not have “faith” then how can you be saved? I still have a lot of studding to do on my journey with the Lord so I really do respect and appreciate your opinion. Your brother Hank_jr |
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5 | "Both of these positions have problems" | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 90159 | ||
"So the question is, if you do not have “works” then how can you have “faith”? And if you do not have “faith” then how can you be saved?" Dear Hank Jr., Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Our good works are our evidence that God is working in us, to do that which He has prepared before-time that we should perform. God Bless You as You Study, John |
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