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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17198 | ||
cont. When you consider that the outpouring of the Spirit like this only happens these two times, Acts 10:47 as a opponent against baptism is not a strong argument. 3-Matt. 28:18-20- If you say that baptizing is an initiation rite into the church then teaching them to obey everything also would have to be an initiation rite (“baptize..and teach”) . It’s not clear enough to me to stand on. If we look at Mark 16:16 we see that Jesus says that those who “believe and are baptized will be saved”. This teaching from Mark would have to be what Matt. teaches or we would have contradiction in the scriptures. 3- I would say Jesus didn’t teach about baptism that much (until just before his accention and through his spirit given at Pentecost ;see John 16:12-13) because Jesus spent his ministry training the heart to love. The need to be baptized doesn’t arise until his death. Why teach it? That obligation was given to the Apostles to teach and that was the first message given. To be baptized is a simple command to follow, Jesus spent his time training the people how to change through love and mercy and teaching them about himself. Something that needed much time to be taught (see John 14:9). I see Jesus taught about baptism in its proper time and through channels he chose to. 4- Lets look at 1 Peter 3:21. “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also- not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” This scripture says a lot about baptism. a) it saves us; as the water that flooded the earth saved Noah and his family (vs. 20). b) it is our pledge of a clear conscience towards God. c) and most importantly, it saves us by the resurrection of Jesus. Which ties in with what Paul says in Rom. 6:1-9 5- You also referred to Rom. 6:1-9. But it mentions nowhere in this passage that baptism is symbolic. It actually stress’s the fact that during baptism we are participating directly with Christs death, burial and resurrection. Paul states in vs. 4 “don’t you know that all of us who are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death?” It says we are united with him, crucified with him, died with him and being freed from our sins. Compare Gal. 3:26-27 “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who are baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ.” And Col. 2:12 “having been buried with him through baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.” These passages show baptism to be a direct participation with happened on the cross when all our sins were forgiven. These scriptures teach a clear definition of what baptism is. If you can show me anything that teaches specifically that baptism is a “symbol” or a “rite of initiation” than I would certainly want to hear it. But I stand at these convictions, my friend, until I see these things. Which I hope you can understand. I think that there needs to be a lot of study (on both our parts) to understand how all these passages we are sharing with each other all work together, because they should. I will pray that we can both come to the truth of this matter. I trust God will do so. Kin |
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2 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 17238 | ||
Greetings Kin! Thanks for the response! Let me touch on each point briefly! 1) I can see your point here, but I'm not sure I would agree with it. I am not one who puts as much "gap" between the Old and New Testaments as some do. But, since this point is debatable, I'll let it slide! :-) 2) I think this point is still the strongest argument against your postion. Yes, the pouring out of the Holy Spirit occurred in unusual ways at the beginning of pentecost. However, the fact remains that the Holy Spirit only fell upon believers. Therefore, Peters request to baptize these Gentiles demonstrates very strongly that their salvation had already taken place before they were baptized. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit could not have fallen on them. 3a) Mark 16:16 is a familiar argument and I'm sure that you've heard it before. However, there are two problems with putting too much emphasis upon Mark 16:16. 1) This verse has two clauses. The first mentions baptism, but the second doesn't. Logically, the element that is mentioned in both clauses in the essential element. 2) The ending of Mark is a disputed text. No one knows for sure what the original text said. Therefore, I would be extremely cautious of basing a doctrine upon it. 3b) This is a debatable point simply because we are arguing from silence. However, I think there is a strong point to made here simply because if baptism were as important to salvation as you believe, then surely there would be some passage of Scripture either in Jesus' teachings or the rest of the New Testament that dealt with it. Instead, we only have a couple of statements that never explain the significance of baptism. 4) One thing is clear from the text of 1 Pet. 3:21, whatever "saves" means in this verse, it does not mean "the removal of dirt". So, what does Peter mean when he says that baptism saves? Verse 22 even makes it clearer that the salvation actually occurs through the resurrection of Christ! 5) The reason I use the term "symbolic" in reference to Rom. 6:1-4 is simply because we don't literally die, get buried, and rise again. Thus, baptism is a symbol of our identification with Christ in all of these things. These three happened to Him, but did not literally happen to us. 6) What about Paul's statement that he did not come to baptize? I understand your convictions my friend. My only concern though is that this line of thought turns baptism into the Christian equivilent of circumcsion. The Judaizers, in Paul's time, tried to make the case that one really wasn't saved unless they were also circumcized. Scripture is clear that salvation is through grace alone. This is my primary concern. But, I appreciate your interaction. I always learn by discussing issues with people. One thing I have learned in this discussion is how little baptism is discussed in Scripture. There are occasional references, but not many passages that define or discuss it. I was very surprized at this fact! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17295 | ||
Hi Tim, If there is anything I have come to learn from this discussion is that I need to “be prepared to give a answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” Our talks have raised a lot of good questions and I need to do some indepth study on this subject. I am not convinced baptism doesn’t have a crucial part in our salvation, because I have never been shown from the word why people are baptized otherwise. But at the same time I am challenged to find out the truth to the many questions arisen. My hope is that you don’t turn a dull ear to the idea of baptism being crucial, because this is a deep subject worth investigating. And the consequences are of eternal importance. So for now I am going to invest my time in study, so when I come back to the forum I can discuss this matter with more wisdom. Be back soon! Thanks again, Kin |
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4 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 17302 | ||
Greetings Kin! I look forward to interacting with you in the future my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17859 | ||
Hey Tim, I found a great study. It's big, so I had to put it in three parts. It starts with "THERE IS ONE BAPTISM". Check it out and let me know what you think. Kin |
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