Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 16963 | ||
Greetings Kin! I'm not sure that I understood your last question. You said, "If baptism isn't water baptism then what is it and where are the scriptures to show it?" Which verse or verses are you referring to here? Concerning Acts 2:38, I still believe that baptism is a command to be obeyed subsequent to salvation, not prior. Here is a repost of my view on Acts 2:38 from July 7, 2001. **************************************** Greetings Sharp! I have been following this thread with interest. Is baptism a necessary for salvation? You seem to be arguing that it is based upon Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Thus, you must be taking the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" as expressing the result of repentance and baptism. However, there are three very good reasons to avoid this interpretation of this verse. 1) The rest of Scripture does not make baptism necessary for salvation, including Acts. Consider the following verses from Acts where forgiveness is mentioned and notice that not one of them links forgiveness with baptism. a) Acts 5:31 - "God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel." b) Acts 10:43 - "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." c) Acts 13:38-39 - ‘‘Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." d) Acts 26:18 - "to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me." Notice that none of these other verses in Acts tie baptism in with the forgiveness of sins. If baptism were essential to salvation, you would think that it would be mentioned in these other verses as well. 2) There are reasons to believe that "for the forgiveness of sins" does not express result, but rather expresses the ground or reason for baptism. The preposition translated as ‘for’ in Acts 2:38 is sometimes used in this way. Consider the following examples and notice that two of them involve baptism (additional evidence that Acts 2:38 should be translated as "on the basis or grounds of the forgiveness of your sins): a) Matthew 3:11 - "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." b) Matthew 12:41 - "The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here." Allow me to address Mt. 12:41 first. The phrase "repented at the preaching of Jonah" uses the same preposition (eis) as does Acts 2:38. Obviously, the preaching of Jonah was the basis of their repentance, not the other way around. The other example illustrates the same thing and it involves baptism. In Mt. 3:11, baptism did not produce repentance. Rather, repentance was the grounds for baptism. 3) Finally, there is evidence in Acts 2:38 that the middle clause (involving baptism) may be a parenthetical statement. The command to repent is plural. The command to be baptized is singular. This would seems to indicate some break in the chain of thought. If this is the case, the phrase "for the remission of sins" may not even belong with the command to be baptized. No one would debate with you that baptism is important to a believer. However, I just can’t see that baptism is necessary for salvation. There are only a couple of debated Scriptures that even seem to make that case, while the vast majority of Scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is through faith alone. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17025 | ||
Tim, Thank you for your response. I would like to agree with you on this subject. But you need to give me some clear scriptures to prove it. The Acts 2:38 debate doesn’t convince me. “repent AND be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” tells me why I need to be baptized. No other scripture tells me to be baptized for any other reason (after the new covenant was established). The scripture also does not tell us to “confess”. Does that nullify the need to confess Jesus as Lord? Gal. 3:26-27 “ You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” Here Paul says we are sons through faith and he goes on to tell us that when we were baptized we put on Christ. Does it not take faith to believe you are participating in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ at baptism? (Rom. 6:1-9) I have brought up Naaman time and time again because to understand what cured Naaman is to understand what saves us. He was cured by his faith. But without the water he wasn’t cured. A faith saying that if I do what God commands I will be cured. If we can’t find in the scriptures the reason for baptism other than for “the forgiveness of sins…” we would be like Naaman saying (faithlessly) “ But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage.” Naaman wanted to do what was logical to him and not simply obey through faith. A couple things I would ask of you. 1- Where in the scriptures does it teach the reason people need to be baptized? 2- What is your opinion on the 2 Kings passage? Talk to you soon, Kin |
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3 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 17031 | ||
Greetings Kin! Let me take your questions in reverse order. 2) What is my opinion on the 2 Kings passage? Honestly, I don't see that it has any relevance to baptism. It was a healing of a non-believer. Nathan wasn't being saved. 1) Where does the Bible teach why we should be baptized? I would say that there are three primary passages. a) Mt. 28:19-20: There is one command in this passage, "make disciples". Every other verb is a participle which describes the process of making a disciple: while going, baptizing, and teaching. Based on this, I would say that baptism is an initiation rite into the church. b) 1 Pet. 3:21: This passage says that baptism is "the pledge of a good conscience toward God". We should be baptized because God commanded it. c) Rom. 6:1-4: Here Paul lays out the case that baptism symbolically identifies us with the death, burial, and resurrection. The problem I have with putting too much emphasis upon baptism is that it puts too much emphasis on one phrase in one verse, which may even be misunderstood (as I posted previously). If one assumes that baptism is necessary to salvation, then how does one answer the following questions? 1) Why does Jesus say so little about baptism? In all of the Gospels accounts, Jesus only mentions baptism a handful of times. Usually, He is refering to John's baptism. Sometimes, He is refering to His death. Only a couple of times, does He refer to baptism as we know. And, He never baptized anyone. 2) How could the thief on the cross be saved, since he wasn't baptized? Jesus clearly indicated that he was saved. The only way around this would be to deny that he was saved or to say that Jesus made an exception. 3) Why was Paul thankful that he didn't baptize? 1 Cor. 1:13-17 makes the point that Paul was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel. If baptism is necessary to salvation, why wouldn't he baptize? Wouldn't baptism be an important part of the gospel? 4) If Acts 2:38 indicates that baptism is necessary for salvation, why does Acts 3:19 not include baptism in it's command? 5) If baptism is essential to salvation, why does Acts 10:47 indicate that those who were already saved and filled with the Holy Spirit should then be baptized? I appreciate your responses, questions, and attitude. My opinion on this is simple. Baptism is important, since it is commanded by Christ Himself. However, it is not essential to salvation. Many, like the thief and those in Acts 10, were clearly saved without being baptized. Jesus did not focus on it much, nor did He baptize anyone. Paul said that he was not sent to baptize and did not baptize many. Scripture clearly teaches that salvation is by grace alone, not works. So, on the whole, I would have to say that there is a strong case that baptism is not essential to salvation. Please let me know what you think! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17197 | ||
Hey Tim, Great thoughts. There is a lot to talk about! I will do it as orderly as possible, starting with the easier ones first and hopefully able to get to everything (I’m a slow typer!) 1- The thief on the cross. Jesus said he has the authority to forgive sins on the earth. Luke 5:24. The reason the thief didn’t need to be baptized was that baptism is the participation in the “death, burial and resurrection of Christ.” Part of the new covenant. Jesus hadn’t died yet. There was no death to participate in. That is why his last words were “it is finished”. That is when the curtain of the temple was torn in two, showing the end of the old covenant. 2- Acts 10:47-The people that received the spirit were the Gentiles (vs. 47). Chapter 11 sheds some light on this issue. "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." When Peter and the Apostles received the Spirit at Pentacost, they didn’t know how or when they would receive the Spirit. They were just hanging out per order of Jesus (Luke 24:49). It came upon them suddenly. When this same event happened to the Gentiles (see 11:15; note “at the beginning”), the “circumcised believers were astonished” because no one but “Jews” had received the Spirit up till that point. When we read chap. 10 we see that neither Peter (vs. 29) or Cornelius (vs.33) knew why each other was coming. It was Gods plan to usher in the Gentiles into the Kingdom of God (11:18). |
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5 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17198 | ||
cont. When you consider that the outpouring of the Spirit like this only happens these two times, Acts 10:47 as a opponent against baptism is not a strong argument. 3-Matt. 28:18-20- If you say that baptizing is an initiation rite into the church then teaching them to obey everything also would have to be an initiation rite (“baptize..and teach”) . It’s not clear enough to me to stand on. If we look at Mark 16:16 we see that Jesus says that those who “believe and are baptized will be saved”. This teaching from Mark would have to be what Matt. teaches or we would have contradiction in the scriptures. 3- I would say Jesus didn’t teach about baptism that much (until just before his accention and through his spirit given at Pentecost ;see John 16:12-13) because Jesus spent his ministry training the heart to love. The need to be baptized doesn’t arise until his death. Why teach it? That obligation was given to the Apostles to teach and that was the first message given. To be baptized is a simple command to follow, Jesus spent his time training the people how to change through love and mercy and teaching them about himself. Something that needed much time to be taught (see John 14:9). I see Jesus taught about baptism in its proper time and through channels he chose to. 4- Lets look at 1 Peter 3:21. “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also- not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” This scripture says a lot about baptism. a) it saves us; as the water that flooded the earth saved Noah and his family (vs. 20). b) it is our pledge of a clear conscience towards God. c) and most importantly, it saves us by the resurrection of Jesus. Which ties in with what Paul says in Rom. 6:1-9 5- You also referred to Rom. 6:1-9. But it mentions nowhere in this passage that baptism is symbolic. It actually stress’s the fact that during baptism we are participating directly with Christs death, burial and resurrection. Paul states in vs. 4 “don’t you know that all of us who are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death?” It says we are united with him, crucified with him, died with him and being freed from our sins. Compare Gal. 3:26-27 “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who are baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ.” And Col. 2:12 “having been buried with him through baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.” These passages show baptism to be a direct participation with happened on the cross when all our sins were forgiven. These scriptures teach a clear definition of what baptism is. If you can show me anything that teaches specifically that baptism is a “symbol” or a “rite of initiation” than I would certainly want to hear it. But I stand at these convictions, my friend, until I see these things. Which I hope you can understand. I think that there needs to be a lot of study (on both our parts) to understand how all these passages we are sharing with each other all work together, because they should. I will pray that we can both come to the truth of this matter. I trust God will do so. Kin |
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6 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 17238 | ||
Greetings Kin! Thanks for the response! Let me touch on each point briefly! 1) I can see your point here, but I'm not sure I would agree with it. I am not one who puts as much "gap" between the Old and New Testaments as some do. But, since this point is debatable, I'll let it slide! :-) 2) I think this point is still the strongest argument against your postion. Yes, the pouring out of the Holy Spirit occurred in unusual ways at the beginning of pentecost. However, the fact remains that the Holy Spirit only fell upon believers. Therefore, Peters request to baptize these Gentiles demonstrates very strongly that their salvation had already taken place before they were baptized. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit could not have fallen on them. 3a) Mark 16:16 is a familiar argument and I'm sure that you've heard it before. However, there are two problems with putting too much emphasis upon Mark 16:16. 1) This verse has two clauses. The first mentions baptism, but the second doesn't. Logically, the element that is mentioned in both clauses in the essential element. 2) The ending of Mark is a disputed text. No one knows for sure what the original text said. Therefore, I would be extremely cautious of basing a doctrine upon it. 3b) This is a debatable point simply because we are arguing from silence. However, I think there is a strong point to made here simply because if baptism were as important to salvation as you believe, then surely there would be some passage of Scripture either in Jesus' teachings or the rest of the New Testament that dealt with it. Instead, we only have a couple of statements that never explain the significance of baptism. 4) One thing is clear from the text of 1 Pet. 3:21, whatever "saves" means in this verse, it does not mean "the removal of dirt". So, what does Peter mean when he says that baptism saves? Verse 22 even makes it clearer that the salvation actually occurs through the resurrection of Christ! 5) The reason I use the term "symbolic" in reference to Rom. 6:1-4 is simply because we don't literally die, get buried, and rise again. Thus, baptism is a symbol of our identification with Christ in all of these things. These three happened to Him, but did not literally happen to us. 6) What about Paul's statement that he did not come to baptize? I understand your convictions my friend. My only concern though is that this line of thought turns baptism into the Christian equivilent of circumcsion. The Judaizers, in Paul's time, tried to make the case that one really wasn't saved unless they were also circumcized. Scripture is clear that salvation is through grace alone. This is my primary concern. But, I appreciate your interaction. I always learn by discussing issues with people. One thing I have learned in this discussion is how little baptism is discussed in Scripture. There are occasional references, but not many passages that define or discuss it. I was very surprized at this fact! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17295 | ||
Hi Tim, If there is anything I have come to learn from this discussion is that I need to “be prepared to give a answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” Our talks have raised a lot of good questions and I need to do some indepth study on this subject. I am not convinced baptism doesn’t have a crucial part in our salvation, because I have never been shown from the word why people are baptized otherwise. But at the same time I am challenged to find out the truth to the many questions arisen. My hope is that you don’t turn a dull ear to the idea of baptism being crucial, because this is a deep subject worth investigating. And the consequences are of eternal importance. So for now I am going to invest my time in study, so when I come back to the forum I can discuss this matter with more wisdom. Be back soon! Thanks again, Kin |
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8 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 17302 | ||
Greetings Kin! I look forward to interacting with you in the future my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Unbaptized children | Bible general Archive 1 | kin | 17859 | ||
Hey Tim, I found a great study. It's big, so I had to put it in three parts. It starts with "THERE IS ONE BAPTISM". Check it out and let me know what you think. Kin |
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