Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | 10ECPreacher | 37027 | ||
Greetings, believer57. I am very disappointed but not surprised by your latest post. I will gladly entertain discussions about the Bible, but I reject post-apostolic writings as the basis for doctrines. That this is considered heretical is fatuous. I have submitted many answers and questions, sincerely seeking dialog, only to be brushed aside with a specious post that looks suspiciously like a convenient smokescreen behind which someone afraid of the truth may hide. You said: 'We have pointed out scripture after scripture that disproves this "Oneness" heresy, but it is obvious that you are not listening.' Au contraire, mon ami. I have attempted to respond to every significant point you raised. As of yet, you have not deigned to answer my responses. Surely if you have "truth" it will not crumble so easily before such "heresy". By the way, "heresy" is defined as: "a belief opposed to authoritative opinion in any area of thought". The only authoritative opinion relative to scripture that I submit to with respect to the formulation of doctrine is that of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. I harbor no personal animus for you, sir. Addressing me as "pastor" (i.e., the word pastor enclosed in quotation marks, implying that I'm not really a pastor) may give you personal gratification, but it does nothing to support your claims, and the attempt to vilify me is fairly obvious to me. But I forgive you. :) If I may suggest without offense to you, please attempt to answer the points that I have raised in my previous posts to you. Failure to do so is tacit admission of inability to do so, I'm afraid. Kind regards, Tim D. Cormier Tennessee Preacher |
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2 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | believer57 | 37301 | ||
Dear Tim, My name is David, beliver 57 is my father, by his permission I am writing this in response to your last post. Answers to the points you have made. *Your explanation for Elohiym; True Abraham means father of multitudes...but what does that have to do with the fact that Elohiym is plural? *You reject any post apostolic teaching on the trinity. Why then does Paul in his letters use the greeting "Grace be to you and peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ"? Why wouldnt he just say "...peace from Jesus Christ our God"? What did Paul mean in II Corinthians 13:14? What did he mean in Galatians 4:4-6 by "...God sent forth His Son..."? Sounds to me like Paul(the Apostle) understood the trinity very well. *Three persons, one God.(old Test) -Gen 1:26 "...let Us create man in Our image, after our likeness...". Who do you think God was talking to? If you are going to use the "majestic plurality" excuse, I will be requiring examples from other Hebrew writings were this same figure of speach was used. -Psalm 2:7-8 "...Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee..." -Psalm 110:1 "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Let me get this straight, God was telling himself, to sit on his own right hand, until he made his own enemies, his own footstool?) **New Testament** -Mark 1:11 "...Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" -John 14:28 "...my Father is greater than I." -John 12:49 "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me..." -John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" -Matt 26:39 "...nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." -John 16:13 "...he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak..." (note: the fact that the Holy Spirit speaks indicates a PERSONALITY) -John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God..." *Your figurative definition for Son of God was a stretch, I couldnt find it in Webster's, The American Heritage College Dictionary, Strongs Greek Dictionary/Lexicon(huios), Youngs Analitical Concordance to the Bible. Wouldnt you agree that by applying "figurative or allegorical" interpritation to scripture, one could force the text to mean anything?. *You often refered to the verses that point to the fact that Christ was in God and God was in Christ. -Yes, this points obviously to the unity of God -However it does not support your theory that there is not a Trinity. Ex: John 6:56 "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him"...just because I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me, does this mean that I am not a seperate person from Jesus? *Final note, to you and others that may be reading these posts. Sabellianism/Modalism is a heresy(by that I mean "a controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, contrary to accepted dogma of Christianity"). Also, the simple fact that you "nay-say" the teachings of the early church fathers, in itself is a characteristic of a false prophet(Jude 1:8 "...speak evil of dignities.")...is it not..mon ami? Now, why dont you understand the trinity? Either, I Corinthians 2:14, a demon spirit, or pride. You were probably tought this non-sence when you were a kid and are simply too pridful to consider the truth. It is amazing to me how many cultist will stay in denial just out of pride. When you finally say to God, not my will, but thine be done...thats when the truth will you like a ton of bricks. But you have to deny yourself before you can follow Jesus. Lastly, as far as the salvation of a modalist is concerned, thats not my job, but I can tell you that your skating on thin ice. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you, -Believer 50mmH.G.C. |
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3 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | 10ECPreacher | 37336 | ||
Greetings, believer57 (the father) and David (the son). Again, I'm disappointed but not surprised at your response. I beseech you to not make this a personal battle. You write (amazingly): "Also, the simple fact that you "nay-say" the teachings of the early church fathers, in itself is a characteristic of a false prophet(Jude 1:8 "...speak evil of dignities.")...is it not..mon ami?" Adolf Hitler was a "dignity" to somebody, but he wasn't one to me. Again, you write (amazingly): "Now, why dont you understand the trinity? Either, I Corinthians 2:14, a demon spirit, or pride. You were probably tought this non-sence when you were a kid and are simply too pridful to consider the truth. It is amazing to me how many cultist will stay in denial just out of pride. When you finally say to God, not my will, but thine be done...thats when the truth will you like a ton of bricks. But you have to deny yourself before you can follow Jesus." I'm almost speechless. Again I think of Stephen, being chewed on by men who could not resist the wisdom with which he spoke. ("If you can't attack the argument, just go ahead and attack the man.") Again, you write (amazingly): "Lastly, as far as the salvation of a modalist is concerned, thats not my job, but I can tell you that your skating on thin ice." How do you know that? Again, I'm flabbergasted! There are many things that could be said about me and many things that could be said about you. But those things are not important when it comes to discussing the Bible. I am weary of painstakingly answering your questions only to have my answers casually brushed aside or improperly analyzed. If anyone else cares to take up this thread, be my guest. I repeat my earlier post by saying I harbor no animus for believer57. I truly believe we are at an impasse as far as this discussion goes. I will be happy to respond to logical and thoughtful analysis of my previous posts. I do not feel it is an effective use of this forum to have to repeat the statements that I made in the beginning of this thread. Kind regards, Tim D. Cormier Tennessee Preacher P.S. When researching the meaning of "huios", consider the "Sons of thunder", the "Son of consolation", the "sons of wrath", etc., etc. "It always helps to open your mind before trying put something in it." :) |
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4 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | believer57 | 37387 | ||
Dear Tim, *Jude 1:8 is talking about false prophets, therefore "dignities" is clearly speaking of dignities in the church. By continualy dodging my "logical and thoghtful" commentary on your previous post, and not responding. As you mentioned I will consider your retreat, and failure to respond "tacit admission of inability to do so"(as you put it). Trinitarians-1...Modalist-0 Final note to those who might be following these post. You will notice anytime you are dealing with a cult member(EX: Jehovahs whitness, modalist, the way international, etc...). In a debate situation they will ultimatly do what our friend Tim here has done...that is run with their tail tucked. That is why it is so important to learn the Bible, and the foundational doctrines. Because the Bible is absolutly perfect and without error, and when you get familiar with foundational doctrines, dealing with cultist is very easy, because one cannot argue with the TRUTH, only rebel against it. God Bless, David/Beliver 50mmH.G.C. |
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5 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | 10ECPreacher | 37442 | ||
Greetings, believer57/David. If the Bible is absolutly (sic) perfect and without error, then why am I a heretic for saying I believe everything the Bible says? Simply because I refuse to subscribe to teachings of men who in my opinion have no more authority to lay down foundational doctrines than did Adolf Hitler I am not even worth being kind to. Your version of "Christianity" is different than mine, that's for sure! :) I am striving to not be offensive to you, my friend, or to anyone else on this forum. Since you hold the popular, traditional view, you can afford to dispense with such courtesies, it seems. If you have interpreted my unwillingness to engage in personal attacks as retreat, then you have deceived yourself. I have responded to scriptural points that were logical. Questions that are foolish and create strife I am admonished to avoid. Rest assured of this one thing: I have not retreated, nor am I defeated. You are the one who still has questions to answer, my friend. If you don't choose to, that doesn't mean I win. It may just mean that you can't. Please try not to be so bitter against me. Kind regards, Tim D. Cormier Tennessee Preacher |
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6 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | believer57 | 37452 | ||
Pastor, I think my son did an outstanding job of refuting modalism. I think this has gone on far enough. You are unwilling to bend, (I actually admire that), but are not correct in your theology. I have been praying for guidance with regards to heresies in the church. They abound around us. Sabellian was rightly labelled a heretic by people who knew scripture better than you or I, (and they were pre-Nicene creeed).This was the reason I quoted their sayings regarding modalism. It, in my belief, simply does not make sense, nor did it to them. I do not understand these "offshoot" theologies, but they are here and I am trying to. You make statements like "you must" and that is simply not true. We must adhere to the Word of God, and how the Holy Ghost reveals it to us. I see what you are trying to prove, but it just does not make any sense. You deceive yourself, my friend. The thought of mentioning an animal like Adolf Hitler, in the same sentence as some of our church fathers, tells me that you have reached the desperation point. Of course you adhere to the teaching of men, (Sabellian). You can do better that, can't you? We can argue all day over whether a fire truck is red or not, (it is), but this will get us no where. It is frustrating dealing with the heresies that have sprung up, but it is something that us Christians must do. I apologize if this debate got a little "spicey", but my son is zealous for his Lord and Saviour, and he is not very patient with those who choose to "spiritualize" text. The Word does NOT say Jesus prayed from one part of himself to another, but if that is what you see, then so be it. According to your theology, the Father suffered on the cross, (Patriapassianism). I am not buying, nor are most of us, (praise God!). I did not mean to assume the posture of personal attacks, but my son is correct in his assessment. I too, have engaged "unitarians", and other "modalists", and it ALWAYS gets down to accusations of personal attacks, when they are overwhelmed with scriptural evidence contrary to their theology. It also appears evident, that their theology is almost entirely based in the Pauline Letters. This is consistent with Peter's warning, (2 Peter 3:16). Paul's letters to the churches were in response to problems in the church, but were not meant as foundational doctrine. You should know this. Are his letters the inspired word? Absolutely. It appears that your "cornerstone" is Colossians 2:9. This is clearly an example of "spiritualizing" scripture. Paul did not mean that Jesus was the completeness of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, encapsulated, so that the other two are not co-existent. Of course not. He is declaring the deity of Christ, whom had been annointed with the Holy Spirit. How many times does Paul, along with the prophets, and Christ himself, tell us that He was SENT? Too many to respond to. I understand. Did Jesus tell us that He would SEND a part of himself? Of course not. All Three are alive and well, my friend."The Lord said unto my Lord..." Did I miss your response to that one? I thought so... ( My son's signature means 50 MM Holy Ghost Cannon!). He is an arrow in my quiver....And to think, he started off as a "unitarian".He is now a spirit-filled Christian, a member of a rather large, non-denominational church in San Antonio....The Truth is indeed powerful, and it will set you free.. Remember, you started this, (Is God one or three? Please, spare me the theatrics. This is what you wanted..). Problem is, I am a player, and will play all night.. I do hold the popular, traditional view, it has worked pretty good so far..Why don't you? Oh, ALL of us are wrong, and your small number is right? Seek and preach the Truth, your ministry will explode....You have passion, the harvest is plenty... we need labourers..Jump on, the hour is late... God Bless.....believer57 | ||||||
7 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | 10ECPreacher | 37507 | ||
Greetings, believer57. You have consistently avoided answering the points that I have made that unequivocally show the untenable nature of your position. I just went back through this thread to make sure that my memory was serving me correctly. Instead of making slanderous statements about you, I choose to believe that you simply cannot answer these questions. Instead of doing something silly like posting a scoreboard, I am content to let things be. However it begins to appear that you are ignoring what I have written and are simply jumping from pillar to post to keep from being pinned down. I challenge you, my friend, to reread my previous post of 2/28/02 with an "open" mind. Please do not take anything I have written as a personal affront to you. (If this is what you are calling theatrics, then I'm sorry... I don't know how else to convey my sentiments. I'm not trying to come across as a bully.) You state that I am not "correct" in my theology. If you cannot substantiate that claim with scripture, then you have libeled me. If you can substantiate that claim with scripture, then I will gladly declare to this forum that you have shown by scripture that my theology was not correct. Your opinion does not determine what theology is correct or incorrect. The only "opinion" that is authoritative is that of the scripture. You state: "Sabellian was rightly labeled a heretic by people who knew scripture better than you or I, (and they were pre-Nicene creed)." It amazes me how you can make a judgment about how well I know the scriptures. It is perfectly fine for you to say these folks knew the scriptures better than you, because you have a fair assessment of how well you know the scriptures. The fact that you have no qualms about making assertions concerning things about which you have no certain knowledge causes me to have grave misgivings concerning your ability to accurately reason at an extremely analytical level. As to the writings of the ante-Nicene "Fathers", it is obvious that the trinitarian doctrine, though formally accepted at the Council of Nice, 325AD, was being formulated for many years before that. However, a careful study of the scripture shows that no such doctrine existed in the days of the apostles. If I am to be labeled a heretic for merely believing what the Apostles taught, then you will be forced to label the Apostles as heretics. You state: "We must adhere to the Word of God, and how the Holy Ghost reveals it to us." If this means I will be required to accept post-Apostolic writings as superior to Apostolic writings, then I cannot agree. I contend that the Holy Ghost will not make someone say something different or better than what the Apostles said. You write: "Of course you adhere to the teaching of men, (Sabellian). You can do better that, can't you?" Indeed I can. I don't think I have ever even read any writings of Sabellius; if I have, I can't recall. I have read about him. But I don't preach a doctrine founded by Sabellius; I preach a doctrine founded by the Apostles and Prophets, with Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. You speak of 'those who choose to "spiritualize" text.' I guess there are many differences of opinion as to where "spiritualizing" is permissible and where it isn't. You write: "According to your theology, the Father suffered on the cross, (Patriapassianism)." This is as bold a prevarication as I have ever seen. According to my theology, the Father is Spirit. The Father was in the Son, and the Son was in the Father. The Son suffered on the cross, yielded up the spirit of the Father that was in Him, and died. It is impossible for God the Eternal Spirit (the Father) to die. You speak of "accusations of personal attacks". Friend, the proof is in the posts! I have never attacked you or your character. You, on the other hand, have consistently made false accusations against me, libeled my character, and made all sorts of unsupported claims about my motives, my past, and my knowledge. You wrote: '"The Lord said unto my Lord..." Did I miss your response to that one?' The 110th Psalm is clearly a prophecy of the coming Messiah. This prophetic utterance merely foretells the fact that the Messiah (Christ, the Son) will be the Father's instrument of salvation and judgment. I'm not sure what your question is all about here. If you cannot understand the dual nature of Christ (both humanity and deity) then this scripture will remain a mystery to you. Kind regards, Tim D. Cormier Tennessee Preacher |
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8 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | Morant61 | 37516 | ||
Greetings Tim! I haven't read every one of your posts on this topic yet, so you may have answered this before. However, I came across a statement that confused me. You wrote: "According to my theology, the Father is Spirit. The Father was in the Son, and the Son was in the Father. The Son suffered on the cross, yielded up the spirit of the Father that was in Him, and died. It is impossible for God the Eternal Spirit (the Father) to die." In modalism, aren't the names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all just titles for the same Person. Therefore, how can the spirit of the Father be in the Son? How can the Son yield up the Spirit of the Father? The Son is God, right? Maybe I'm just missing something, but this sounds almost like the Gnostic teaching that the Divine Spirit of Christ came upon the man Jesus and then left him before his death. Under this view, Jesus was just a man and not fully God. This hasn't bee my understanding of what modalism teaches. Modalism fully recognizes the full Deity of Jesus, but denies that there are three Persons in the Godhead. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | 10ECPreacher | 37592 | ||
Greetings, fellow Tim. I cannot speak in defense of modalism, because I know very little about it. I have only lately been dubbed a "modalist", and I didn't agree to the charge; I said if the apostles were modalists, then I am one, too. (A little sarcasm was intended there... :) ) I probably have given some of these definitions before, but here they are again, anyway. Father: the invisible, infinite eternal Spirit; always refers to God as a spirit being; the term implies source and origination, and ultimately the source of power underlying all acts attributed to Deity; Son: the visible, finite body of God; here humanity and deity are combined in a perfect union--Son of Man, fully man, perfect man, very man; and Son of God, fully God, perfect God, very God; theologically, the Son is Christ--the anointed of Yah, the long anticipated Coming One; the Son possessed a dual nature, and sometimes He spoke and acted as a man, while at other times He spoke and acted as God; the Son is the incarnation of the Word (which is another term for God--the Logos, mind, logic, intelligence, plan, schema, purpose of God); the purpose of the Son is propitiation, redemption, reconciliation and intercession--to die on the cross as the Lamb of God and then to serve as our High Priest in Heaven itself; the Son is both the sacrifice and the savior, the gift and the giver; He is the passover and the deliverer, the sin offering and the scapegoat; He is the spiritual root and the natural offspring of David; I believe the term Son of God actually means the Body of God, or the personification of God; Holy Spirit: the aspect of the spirit of God as it is given to men to assist, aid, comfort, succour, and defend; after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of the Son, the Holy Spirit (i.e., the spirit of the holy God) works with earthbound humanity in regeneration, and serves us as a guide; the Holy Spirit is indeed the Spirit of Christ, as we know that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself"; I believe in the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and I do not see three persons in the Godhead in the scripture. I don't agree with the Gnostic teaching you referred to, and I don't know enough about modalism to address it. I do not believe the "God" aspect of the Son died; the Son died in that the "body" died. But Jesus said previously, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The humanity of the Son died, and the Diety part of the Son raised that body from the grave. Jesus said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." Speaking as a man, He existed in the sphere of humanity which is "in" God (the Father) who is omnipresent, i.e., His Spirit exists everywhere. The eternal, invisible Spirit of God (the Father) also was in the Son. If I have not been sufficiently clear, please advise. Thank you. Kind regards, Tim D. Cormier Tennessee Preacher |
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10 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | Morant61 | 37596 | ||
Greetings Tim! Thanks for the response my friend! Modalism is basically what you seem to believe, but I won't press the term if you don't want! :-) My concern about your definitions centers on the relationship between the Father and the Son on the cross. My understanding of Scripture, as you have also alluded to in other posts, is that Jesus is God incarnate - God in the flesh. And, in Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily (Col. 2:9). However, in your definition, it almost sounds like Jesus is just the vessel and the Spirit of God simply inhabits the vessel. Then, before the death of the cross, the Spirit of God leaves the body of Jesus. If this is what you are saying, then who died? How could God be the sacrifice if He wasn't present in the death? Regardless of one's position on the Trinity, Scripture is clear that Jesus is fully God, not just a man inhabited by God's Spirit. Thus, God incarnate did indeed die on the cross. If I'm misunderstanding your position, please let me know! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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11 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | 10ECPreacher | 37605 | ||
Greetings yet again, fellow Tim! In discussions like these, it behooves us to articulate our positions precisely and concisely. I think some of your misunderstanding of my position is due to the fact that I haven't stated it clearly enough. Sorry about that. I refer to the term "Son" as the body or house of God. (John 1:14 -- the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.) I agree that Jesus is fully God, not just a man inhabited by God's Spirit; but He also was fully man. I think the misunderstanding involves your statement "Then, before the death of the cross, the Spirit of God leaves the body of Jesus." I don't believe that the Spirit of God remained in Jesus after He died, and I know that the Spirit of God did not die. Jesus died as a man; Jesus raised His dead body from the grave as God. This shows the dual nature of Jesus Christ. I believe the sacrifice for sins was the Body He prepared--sinless, pure, separate from sinners. The Lamb of God was the Son of God. I would probably say the incarnation of God died on the cross, as opposed to God incarnate. They may mean the same thing, but I do not want to imply that God died on the cross. If God dies, we're all in trouble. :) I must hurry off, but I shall return and make sure that I haven't mislead you again. Kind regards, Tim D. Cormier Tennessee Preacher |
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12 | Is God ONE or is God THREE? | James 2:19 | Morant61 | 37608 | ||
Greetings Tim! Thanks for the clarification! From what you are saying, I think I was correct in my understanding of your statement. If I'm understanding your position correctly, then God didn't die for us. So, who did? Jesus was more than just a body or a vessel. He was fully God and fully man. However, if you seperate the His divine nature from the death, then you end up with just a man dying, not God. Further, where is the Scriptural support for saying that part of His nature died, but part left? On a serious note, you wouldn't happen to be a Titans fan would you? ;-) My team, the Colts, are going to be a part of the Titan's division next year. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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