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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | is it ok to lie in certain cases | Col 3:9 | bowler | 207971 | ||
Tim Moran The isssue is not whether or not God will deliver and trusting Him. The issue is that He does not always choose to as is shown by scripture to be true, and in cases such as those what would we have done? God does not deliver us from every single situation, He often calls us to make hard decisions and does not provide a way out. The concept is not why we should condone sin, the concept is as Jesus was showing the Pharisees that their concept of law keeping was flawed and that they would seek to do that which was more right in a dire situation, that we may be called upon to do the same thing. Steve said something intereseting. He said that Jesus was showing the Pharisees that to save a life by exertion on the (paraphrasing) Sabbath was not breaking the law, it was right to do. Now technically they would have to break the Sabbath to save the life, but according to Jesus it is no longer wrong to do. I think perhaps God has never placed you and some others in a situation where you did not have any options that were good and there was no time left to wait it out to see if God would deliver. Immediate death of someone else may not wait for you to hear or see from God, then what do you do? God's will is good, and complete and holy, but He promised us suffering, not good times. We are never going to be as holy as God, or as holy as we would like to be, we strive for that. Look again at David, he was a man after God's own heart who did a lot of things besides his two major sins to survive, and you never hear of God saying that was wrong David, only on the two great sins. Just a thought. blessings abound, bowler |
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2 | is it ok to lie in certain cases | Col 3:9 | Morant61 | 207981 | ||
Greetings Bowler! You wrote: "The isssue is not whether or not God will deliver and trusting Him. The issue is that He does not always choose to as is shown by scripture to be true, and in cases such as those what would we have done?" Hypotheticals are tricky things, but let us assume the following scenario. The government has allowed Christianity. They are making examples of those that they find by killing them publicly. Soldiers come to my house and drag me and my entire family out into the front yard. They put guns to the heads of my entire family and loudly proclaim, 'Renounce Christ or we will shoot you and your family!' What should you do? Would lying be an option? I would trust God to protect me and my family. However, God decided not to deliver us from death, I would accept His Sovereign judgment and die. Our lives are His bowler, not ours! I have no right to sin to protect myself, or others, based on the notion that God might not deliver. 2) Sabbath You wrote: "The concept is not why we should condone sin, the concept is as Jesus was showing the Pharisees that their concept of law keeping was flawed and that they would seek to do that which was more right in a dire situation, that we may be called upon to do the same thing. Steve said something intereseting. He said that Jesus was showing the Pharisees that to save a life by exertion on the (paraphrasing) Sabbath was not breaking the law, it was right to do. Now technically they would have to break the Sabbath to save the life, but according to Jesus it is no longer wrong to do." You are missing the point of the passage my friend. Jesus was not saying that it was okay to sin to save a life. He was saying that they had misunderstood the purpose and nature of the Sabbath to begin with. The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath. Saving a life on the Sabbath was not a violation of the Sabbath. 3) You wrote: "I think perhaps God has never placed you and some others in a situation where you did not have any options that were good and there was no time left to wait it out to see if God would deliver. Immediate death of someone else may not wait for you to hear or see from God, then what do you do?" Our faith and obedience are not conditioned upon getting what we want from God. If God choose to allow me or others to die, I would faithfully and joyfully accept His will. Nothing can happen apart from God's will. 4) Concerning David, God never says that sin is sin? I must have misread the Bible all of these years! ;-) Here is my thought my friend! We must obey and serve the Lord no matter what the cost! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | is it ok to lie in certain cases | Col 3:9 | bowler | 208012 | ||
Tim Moran You and perhaps others would not, but I would separate dying for Christ for the sake of saying "I am a Christian", from making sure someone else did not die for other reasons. What I keep seeing here is that a lot of folks are trying to take what I have been saying and to apply it accross the board to all Christian issues as if I am trying to make a new "normative" for all Christians to now follow, as that "it is all right to lie if the situation warrants it whatever situation that is". That is not something I am trying to do, make an new Christian normative. I am trying to say something about the concept of higher goods and lesser sins in an application "only to the saving of another human life in circumstances for which God is not supplying an alternative". The expamples I keep using are of David lying to his enemies and killing whole towns when he went to Ziklag, David and his men eating consecrated bread, Rahab lying to save the spies and by attrition all of Israel, the midwives in Exodus, Moses mother and father in Exodus - in all of these cases there were lies or sins of ommission or commission and it was withing God's plan A that these things were done, or else we are rewritting the Bible and what happened in it. As I keep on saying the Bible is strangely silent about these sins that were committed, or if you like these "good deeds" were committed in order to save lives. I never said that God never says sin is sin, I said He did allow it and therefore ordained it as part of His plan A, and that if we are to say that He did not ordain it, then we are saying that someone else has more power to affect, or effect something, and thereby would be more powerful than God, and that tramples on the sovereignty of God. I did not say in my post to Steve that Jesus condoned "sin" to save a life, I said that technically to exert oneself on the Sabbath is breaking it. Your statement that the Sabbath was created for man is true, Jesus said it, that does not abbrogate Moses understanding from God that absolutely no work was to be done on the Sabbath - I would call what Jesus did progressive revelation about the meaning of the Sabbath. But I also believe that Jesus was doing more than just declaring the Sabbath to be for man, He was also saying, "look your measuring stick of righteousness is wrong, you keeping the law is not the point, doing what is right in a given situation is the point - saving a life is a higher notch on that measuring stick than keeping laws." I may be very wrong about that, but that is the whole crux of what I keep saying. In looking at the following which you said, I got to thinking some more - Our lives are His bowler, not ours! I have no right to sin to protect myself, or others, based on the notion that God might not deliver. Then how come we have David, Jonathon, Rahab, Exodus mid-wives in the Bible doing what had to be done and God never addressed it, never condemned it, but said some of it were acts of faith? We can't rewrite the Bible, I agree with Val, we should not try to go beyond the Bible, if it does not explain it or condemn it why are we? blessings abound, bowler |
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4 | is it ok to lie in certain cases | Col 3:9 | Morant61 | 208014 | ||
Greetings Bowler! Allow me to address just the heart of the matter. Thanks for the response by the way. :-) You wrote at the end of your post: " Then how come we have David, Jonathon, Rahab, Exodus mid-wives in the Bible doing what had to be done and God never addressed it, never condemned it, but said some of it were acts of faith? We can't rewrite the Bible, I agree with Val, we should not try to go beyond the Bible, if it does not explain it or condemn it why are we?" Simply put, God does condemn lying all throughout Scripture. The cases you mention are narrative passages describing what happened, not didactic passages teaching how we should live. At best, you are arguing from silence. At worst, you are ignoring the clear statements of Scripture. Did people lie in the Old Testament? Sure they did! Did God ever say that it was okay to sin? No, He didn't! People also murdered, committed adultery, and worshiped idols, but that doesn't mean we should. :-) The issue that concerns me is the way that so many seem to be willing to justify deliberate sin if the ends are good. There simply isn't any Scripture to support such a notion my friend. In the final analysis, the question is are we going to obey God or not? This is going to be my final post on this issue, not because I am upset at you my friend. It is just that this thread has gotten quite long and not much more can be said. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | is it ok to lie in certain cases | Col 3:9 | bowler | 208024 | ||
Tim Moran I appreciate your concerns and am a little concerned that we all got off onto something the original questioner was not quite talking about, or asking about in the way we are pursuing this. In light of that, I myself will follow suit and leave off the subject. blessings abound, bowler |
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