Results 1 - 5 of 5
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Why the children? | Num 33:55 | Beja | 224840 | ||
Inquisitor, How then do you explain these passages? Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniqEph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, AND WERE BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as the rest. uity, And in sin my mother conceived me. (emphasis mine to show which part I want you to explain.) Rom 5:16-19 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. We must be very careful with this doctrine, because at the heart of Christianity lies this presupposition: A man can be judged by the merits or failures of another. If we take away that concept we have taken away the very gospel we preach. In Christ, Beja |
||||||
2 | Why the children? | Num 33:55 | Inquisitor | 224842 | ||
Dear Beja, Response to Psalms: In God's Eyes, all of mankind are like "children of wrath" in that our basic nature is to rebel. Look at the history of the whole world. War is the most recurring theme throughout our history. Reponse to Romans: As described by Paul, all mankind has indeed inherited the consequences of the fall of man and woman in the Garden of Eden. But that "fall" for each and every single one of us is re-confirmed when we reach the age of accountability (varies from person to person) and first decide to do or say or NOT do or say against what our awakening conscience tells us. This is just another example of one of God's basic laws of "reaping what we sow." It is inherent in man- and woman-kind for we can't possibly get away from our weak and sinful nature. That was proven by Adam and Eve; they had the very presence of God Himself and could come face to Face with Him, only because at that time they had no sin. (Notice this is one more proof that it is possible for a human being to be completely innocent and free of sin, absolutelly proven in the Face of God Himself.) But once they sinned, they could not face God and none of us have been able to do so since that day. Scriptures in support... Deut 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin. 2 Ki 14:5 Now it happened, as soon as the kingdom was established in his hand, that he executed his servants who had murdered his father the king. 6 But the children of the murderers he did not execute, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, in which the LORD commanded, saying, “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; but a person shall be put to death for his own sin.” 2 Chron 25:4 4 However he did not execute their children, but did as it is written in the Law in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; but a person shall die for his own sin.” And Repeated in 2 Kings 14:5...Repeated by God for emphasis? Who knows but God Himself. Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. Eze 18:19-20 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. As I mentioned to Azure, this is indeed a very, VERY controversial subject which has been going on for a thousand years or more. How can either one of us, you or me reconcile these verses. How about if you take a shot and explain the reconcilation to me? Please I would beg of you. Please be sure to explain the ideas/thoughts behind your words as quoted below: We must be very careful with this doctrine, because at the heart of Christianity lies this presupposition: A man can be judged by the merits or failures of another. If we take away that concept we have taken away the very gospel we preach. How and why would our God judge one person by the merits or failures of another? Please explain as thoroughly as you can why this concept is so important to the "very gospel we preach." Looking forward to your response and God bless, Inquisitor PS: I'm praying for you and Azure in this discussion. |
||||||
3 | Why the children? | Num 33:55 | Beja | 224843 | ||
Inquisitor, So you agree that our basic nature is to rebel? That means the problem is not at the level of our actions, but of our very nature or disposition which then leads to our actions. Children have this flaw as much as any man does. As the father of a 3 year old I can assure you of that. I deny that adam and eve had this same flaw. I could not tell from your post if you agree with that point. However, if that also is granted then what shall we say? Every one with us are born with the natural inclination to sin and rebel, and that we inherit from Adam. And when did Adam obtain this flaw? When he first chose to sin. How can we but say that each and every one of us are cursed with this rebelious and sinful nature as a result of Adam's sin? So the end result is that even a newborn infant, because of the sin of Adam is a little sin factory. By nature even that infant is deep down inclined to sin. They don't have to wait and make a choice to have that inclination. And is that inclination itself not sinful? Our very disposition is sinful, not merely our actions. In Christ, Beja |
||||||
4 | Why the children? | Num 33:55 | Inquisitor | 224844 | ||
Dear Beja, It's difficult to respond to so many questions in one post but I'll try. ALTHOUGH I notice you didn't respond to the scriptures in my previous post as I did to your's. Quoted from Beja... Q1.So you agree that our basic nature is to rebel? That means the problem is not at the level of our actions, but of our very nature or disposition which then leads to our actions. Children have this flaw as much as any man does. As the father of a 3 year old I can assure you of that. As a father and grandfather, I can agree that our kids can be a major pain when they don't get their way. But don't you see, they don't see anything wrong with that screaming, hollering and misbehaving. All they know they're not getting what they consider they gotta have. But later on, maybe as soon 10, 11 or 12 years of age, they begin to put two and two together and see the difference between right and wrong. So this growing and learning is a process through which all of us mankind go, in our maturing. Q2. I deny that adam and eve had this same flaw. I could not tell from your post if you agree with that point. However, if that also is granted then what shall we say? Every one with us are born with the natural inclination to sin and rebel, and that we inherit from Adam. God doesn't create ANYTHING with a sinful or evil nature in it. Don't you see that in the Creation account of Genesis? EVERYTHING Created by God "was good" and He was satisfied with His Creation including His newly created Adam and Eve. BUT they grew in knowledge and learned about the attractiveness of sin and disobeyed God. That's where we ALL go wrong. We ALL violate our conscience. We all look at the options/choices in our lives and weigh the advantages of making the good vs bad decisions. Good decisions almost always include a sacrifice of some kind and thus one child chooses NOT to share his cookie or his toys with his sibling. And on it goes in spite of the teaching and spanking from the parents. The child learns to conceal his decisions and the consequences thereof. Don't you see, the initial birth of a child from God (just like His Creation in the Beginning) is perfectly innocent from all sin. That child has no consciousness about right from wrong; how could anyone argue against this? Q3.And when did Adam obtain this flaw? When he first chose to sin. How can we but say that each and every one of us are cursed with this rebelious and sinful nature as a result of Adam's sin? I tried to explain this above but one has to see that this spirit of rebiliousness varies from one person to another. We all have different parents and different environments from which we learn right and wrong. BUT we can also learn to be clever and get away with our rebellious life for a little while. But sooner or later, either mankind or God will catch up with that person and he will "reap what he sows," either in this life or the one hereafter. Q4.So the end result is that even a newborn infant, because of the sin of Adam is a little sin factory. By nature even that infant is deep down inclined to sin. NO, NO, NO...that's what I've been saying. The child is innocent but he learns to be sinful and rebellious against the good things in life and later on against God's Good Will. Q5.They don't have to wait and make a choice to have that inclination. And is that inclination itself not sinful? Our very disposition is sinful, not merely our actions. This inclination as you're referring to above is true but it doesn't manifest itself in a child with actual intent until his early teens or maybe 11 or 12. He doesn't actually start scheming and hatching "evil" plans to get his way until this stage of his life. This is what I'm trying to get across to you. How can you possibly look into the face of a sweet, innocent two month old baby and call that sweet child evil, down deep inside? God forbid. Please tell me you don't really believe this way. Azure, do you have anything to say about this? Do you have some way of reconciling the conflicting verses I've provided in my previous post? I'm anxiously awaiting such responses from both of you, Beja and Azure. I do hope you and all who are reading might respond with their thoughts. Please do. God bless all of you, Inquisitor |
||||||
5 | Why the children? | Num 33:55 | Beja | 224846 | ||
Inquisitor, The reason I so often neglect your verses is because you just post a great many with no explination of what you intend to show by them. I really don't know what you are trying to prove by the verses you used. Second, you greatly missunderstood my reply by breaking it up as you did. Many of those questions were meant to be rhetorical. Not really asking you. Also I would suggest you are saying two conflicting things in your post. On one hand you say, "As a father and grandfather, I can agree that our kids can be a major pain when they don't get their way. But don't you see, they don't see anything wrong with that screaming, hollering and misbehaving. All they know they're not getting what they consider they gotta have." You are suggesting that their ignorance makes them innocent. But I'm pointing out what it is that they do in their ignorance. They do not do "right" up until the point they learn enough to be tempted. My point is that in their ignorance they do "wrong" up to the point they can be taught to do right. This shows what they are by nature. Their natural born tendency is to do things that are wrong. So on one hand you affirm that in their ignorance they do things that they ought not do, and on the other you say they are not by nature sinful. I suggest that is contradictory. As another note, in no relation to this discussion, I can very seldom follow any of your posts. Very often you wonder at my not replying to things you say, but the honest truth is I dont' reply because I don't understand you. Could you help me by maybe at the end of your post clearly stating in a concise sentence or two what you feel your post has shown and what I should respond to? I don't say this to be mean. I've simply tried to not mention it several times but it keep impairing our communication on these forums. In Christ, Beja |
||||||