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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "objects of wrath" | Eph 2:3 | New Creature | 98720 | ||
My question concerns the Biblical term "objects of wrath" Does an "object of wrath" have to remain in that condition, or can he be moved to a state where it may be said he now has become an "object of mercy"? Look at these verses; Romans 9 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- From the following verse it appears that even the saved were (past tense) "objects of wrath" It seems, here at least, that being an "object of wrath" is not an fixed unmoveable condition. Would that be correct? Ephesians 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. New Creature |
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2 | "objects of wrath" | Eph 2:3 | Aixen7z4 | 99306 | ||
Is it possible to change? Change the subject? Thank God, he predetermined that we have free will. And, come to think of it, there are other things to thank him for. A wise man once said it is not possible to logically defend the doctrine of determinism. If you were predetermined to believe it then you would believe it even if it were false. Therefore you are powerless to determine whether it is true or false. Discussion cannot logically continue beyond that point. Is it possible you were elected to be damned? God could ensure that by making you believe you were elected to be saved when you were not. You would say God would be lying. And that is what you are saying when he says it is not his will that any should perish, and you say he has predetermined some to perish. God could ensure that you would never even seek to be saved, thus sealing your fate. If you want to thank God, then thank him that he is not like that. I wish I could explain to you the doctrine of predestination, but that would be presumptuous and I am afraid you would not consider yourself free to listen. I would hope you would but I would be afraid you would not. From the length of this chain and the preponderance of the opinions I can see that others have tried. But I suppose a person would not even try to change unless he first believes he can change. Yet, it is because I believe that you do have the ability to change that I will say the following briefly. The good news of the word of God is that it is possible for us to change. We are all sinners by birth, and unless we did change we would all go to hell. In his sovereign will God has given all of us a freedom to change, or I might say the freedom to be changed. All we need is the will and he does the changing of us for us. After we are saved we all need to grow, and the process of growth involves change. God has clearly given us responsibility and the ability. In his sovereign will he has determined that anyone who repents and believes in Christ will be saved. He commands us to repent, and he enables us to do it, if we want to. Yes, he gives us the desire, but we can choose to act contrary to even our own desires and best interest. He gives us reason to believe and the ability to do it. Yet we can choose to trust not him. He forgives us of our sins and changes our nature when we come to him and ask for it, believing. This is not a theory; it is a fact. It happened to me. It is also what God has written in the Bible. I could quote you a hundred scripture passages but I would guess you have heard them before. If I were you I would choose to change my mind and believe. If I were someone else who is confused, I would choose to believe and trust God. Repentance and faith are what he requires. May I suggest that there are other things for which to praise God besides his sovereignty? If your real goal here is to glorify I would like to suggest these topics. His wisdom. Love. Mercy. Longsuffering. Holiness. Immutability. Omnipotence. Faithfulness. This is, of course, only a small list. But it may give us a chance to glorify God for some of his other attributes. If it is the aim here to know God as he is, it is a noble goal. Thus saith the LORD, “Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight”, saith the LORD. The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. If we heard some more of these we might do as Moses did. He made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. Please do not tell us it all comes back to the subject of predestination. You might feel we have to, but the passages just quoted tell us there are other attributes to our God that he wants us to be aware of and respond to. Thank God, he has sovereignly determined that we have free will. We can prove it by leaving this subject. If we can’t, then maybe John is right. |
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3 | "objects of wrath" | Eph 2:3 | New Creature | 99352 | ||
you said; "we have free will" "We are all sinners by birth" "In his sovereign will he has determined that anyone who repents and believes in Christ will be saved. He commands us to repent, and he enables us to do it" "we can choose to trust not him." To all that I agree Blessings to you New Creature |
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4 | "objects of wrath" | Eph 2:3 | Aixen7z4 | 99394 | ||
Dear New Creature: Your name means a lot to me. If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. How marvelous! How wonderful! It was the most thrilling experience for me, to be come a new creature. It is also the most thrilling experience to see someone else become a new creature. Yep, they are both the most thrilling. It is the thing the Lord does for all who trust him. It is a miracle of love and grace. Before God changed me, I used to love competition, and winning. Now it is the idea of reconciliation that means so much to me. Thank God that we have been reconciled to God, even though it took the death of his son. Let us thank him again that he was willing to do it. And I believe he wants us to be reconciled to each other as well. It does seem to me that when we are in agreement with him we would also be in agreement with each other. So I would like to reach out to our friends who use the name “Reformed”. I hope they would consider the possibility that they are not saved and that God is locking them into that position by deceiving them into thinking that they had been chosen to be saved. Their position seems to allow for that. I hope that that fear would lead them to ask God for mercy, that it be not so, and to trust him. He will yet respond to their faith. I trust that this piece does not smell of condescension or re-ignite the debate. It is my only wish to see reconciliation, with God if necessary, and with our brethren if they are saved. I reread the entire thread today and was frankly surprised to find this admission: “Of course Reformed theology is not considered infallible by any of it's proponants (after all it is the work of fallible men) nevertheless, I have found it to be of immense value in my own pursuit of knowing God”. I was surprised but pleased to se that these men know that that “theology” is not like the word of God, infallible. It is not like the word of God the work of God. It is the work of men. We can perhaps encourage them to move from it to the word of God. And yet it is based, though imperfectly, on the word of God. I would have to agree that it is of value. I am not sure what “my own pursuit of knowing God” means. If it means that the person is still pursuing the knowledge of God and does not have it, should we not encourage him? I think so. May I say that those of us who are saved are not pursuing the knowledge of God. We have it. We know God, and we are known of him. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, should we not reach our to those who are still pursuing the knowledge of him? I think so, and I hope that they will not resent it. It is my hope that the proponents of the opposite and extreme views will seek reconciliation. I have sought to show above that the sovereignty of God and the free will of man are compatible and can be reconciled. It is amazing that the love and mercy of God can be resisted, but it can. How often he would gather us but we would not. In returning and rest shall we be saved, but we would not. It is amazing that the love and power of an omnipotent God can be held in abeyance by the strong will of a puny man. But it can. God help us to seek reconciliation to him and to each other. After all, we are not satisfied with a man-made theology. We have the satisfying answer from God himself. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. |
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