Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Do you have to be baptized to be saved? | Rom 6:3 | Morant61 | 81016 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! Thanks for the response my friend! The only problem I have with your explanation is that it turns Eph. 2:8-9 into 'not totally by works' rather than 'not by works' period. :-) We both agree that real faith will work and obey. The question that I have been asking those who believe in the necessity of baptism for salvation is simply this though: Isn't there a difference between saying that "real faith will result in works" and that "works are necessary for salvation"? Eph. 2:10 definitely teaches that works will result from faith. Thus, in Eph. 2:8-10, the order is: 1) Grace 2) Faith 3) Salvation 4) Works of obedience. But, what those who teach the necessity of salvation are saying is: 1) Grace 2) Faith 3) Works 4) Salvation. Simply put, Paul does not make modify the word 'works' in any manner. He does not say that 'works of love' save. He does not say that 'some works' save. He does not say that 'works of obedience' save. He simply says, '...not by works'. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Do you have to be baptized to be saved? | Rom 6:3 | Emmaus | 81028 | ||
Tim, What I am saying is that the separation of saving faith into mental assent or belief and the works of obedience that go with that assent or belief is as artificial as separating a living man into soul and body, which are both integral parts of the whole living man, as God intends man to be, which is why our salvation is not complete without the resurrection of the body. The soul of man without his body is not really a complete and integral man as God created him and wishes him to be. Thus we have the promise of the resurrection of the body. And Tim, you could not have missed my point that it is God's grace working in and through us and so it not our work that we should boast. Nor did you address my point that Paul was making the point that our "ungracefull" works to coin a phrase cannot obligate God to save us. Nor did you address the fact that Paul and JAmes are both speaking about Abraham's faith, so we know they are speaking of the same faith. It is as though James is clarifying a point of Pauls's that others are misinterpreting. Emmaus |
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3 | Do you have to be baptized to be saved? | Rom 6:3 | Morant61 | 81051 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! I thought I did deal with those points my friend, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough! :-) My view is that 'faith' is not works, but 'faith' will lead to works. So, I reject the view that Paul is only speaking of 'ungraceful works' in Eph. 2:8-9. He does not add any kind of modifier whatsoever. He simply says 'not by works'. Concerning the differences betweeen Paul and James, I agree that they are not discussing two different 'kinds' of faith, but they are discussing two different issues concerning 'works'. Paul is addressing the 'means' of salvation. He makes it very clear that 'works' do not precede salvation, nor contribute to it in anyway, but 'works' do follow salvation (Eph. 2:10). James is addressing the 'evidence' of faith, not the 'means' of salvation. He addresses those who 'claim' to have faith, but do nothing to demonstrate it. In fact, they seem to claim that one does not have to have any kind of evidence of faith. So, James argues that faith is 'demonstrated (the second possible meaning of the verb 'justify')' by works. As you point out, both refer to Abhraham's faith, but in different contexts. Paul explicitly denies that Abraham was 'justified' (same verb as in James) by his works. Read Rom. 3:21-4:25. Paul is speaking of the means of salvation, while James is not. The confusion about James results in part from a failure on the part of the translators to be consistent. The verb 'justify' is used three times in James 2. Twice, the translators correctly translated it in the sense of one's works 'proving' or 'demonstrating' one's faith. James 2:21 - "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" James 2:25 - "In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?" Both of these verses speak of Abraham's and Rahab's actions demonstrating their faith. Yet, look at the translation of the same verb in James 2:24. James 2:24 - "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." To me, the problem with James is the failure to take the context into consideration. James isn't speaking of how one is saved, but the evidence of salvation. Therefore, James 2:24 should have been translated in the same way as the other two verses. In closing my friend, I would respectfully disagree that their are two 'kinds' of works being discussed. Neither passage modifies the word 'works' in anyway. Therefore, one cannot make the arguement that Paul is only speaking of 'graceless works' or 'faithless works', or anyother kind of works. He very plainly and simply says that we are not saved 'by works' period. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Do you have to be baptized to be saved? | Rom 6:3 | Emmaus | 81060 | ||
Tim, "Therefore, one cannot make the arguement that Paul is only speaking of 'graceless works' or 'faithless works', or any other kind of works. He very plainly and simply says that we are not saved 'by works' period." Repsectfully, one can and does make the argument. His name is James when he says in James 2:24 - "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" period. Living faith is Christ working in and through us by grace. Did Christ's faith alone save us or did His obedient saving work on the Cross have something to do with it? Can the two really be separated? Enough for now. Emmaus |
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5 | Do you have to be baptized to be saved? | Rom 6:3 | Morant61 | 81063 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! Thanks for the polite and enjoyable discussion! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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