Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | srbaegon | 52667 | ||
Thanks Joe Now for the anticipated (obligatory?) follow-up based on a portion of an e-mail that prompted my original question: "[The Reformers] taught that the believer is still under the Law as a 'code of conduct'. Christ's death certainly paid for my sins, and now I am to serve God by keeping the Law. Of course, I cannot keep it in its entirety. So, the doctrine states that Christ's perfect righteousnes, as having kept the Law perfectly, is given to me. So, as the common expression goes, when God looks at me, He sees Christ. The more important Biblical doctrine is the Righteousness of God. We are made the Righteousness of God in Christ - that is, while sinful men were allowed to roam the earth and experience God's blessings, God's righteousness was NOT revealed. Why was this sin not judged?!? Rom 1 tells us that the righteousness of God is revealed in the Gospel: the death of Christ on the cross reveals what God really thinks about sin, what His righteousness demanded. So, in Rom 3, death of Christ is seen as declaring God's righteousness apart from the Law. If God were to manifest His righteousness according to the Law, the sinner would die when he commits his first sin. The death of Christ shows how God could be 'just' in two distinct spheres: for the 'sins that are past', that is all of God's dealings with man before the cross; and for 'this time', 'justifying' the one who believes in Jesus. In Rom 4:6 (KVJ) we have the word 'imputeth righteousness', but that is a serious mistranslation, reflecting the bias of the reformers. The word is the same as 'counted' in Rom 4:5, and 'reckon' in Rom 6. It does not mean, in any sense, 'give to'; it describes the action of the beholder, not something done to the object beheld. So, we are 'reckoned' righteous by God - when He looks at me, He does not see Christ, He sees (I cannot fathom this!) me, but He sees me as _righteous_. I have been justified, declared righteous, because all of my sins have been removed. Now, it is true that He sees me _in Christ_. But this is a different thing than 'seeing Christ.'" 1. Is the Reformed position given accurately? 2. What are comments concerning the "more important" doctrine of the righteousness of God? Are these things mutually exclusive, or are they possibly mutually misunderstood? Steve |
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2 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | ChristLifer2001 | 52821 | ||
Hi Steve, I'll do my best to answer your question from the scriptures without examining Reformed beliefs (which I know nothing about). God calls the righteousness that we have in Christ a gift - Rom 6:23. A gift is something that is given freely by one party to another party. It can be "given" and it can be "received." God does not simply see us as righteous. He does not pretend that we are righteous. He does not see what is not there. He sees us as righteous because we ARE righteous. But this righteousness doesn't not come from ourselves or our actions, it comes from God. We are MADE righteous at salvation - Rom 5:17,19. Specifically, how does God do this? He accomplishes this by giving us a brand new human spirit that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now, before you label me a heretic or a mystic, let's examine the scriptures. In Eze 36:26, God promises those under the New Covenant a new spirit, does He not? Why? Because man's "in Adam" spirit is dead in trespasses and sin. Dead to God but alive to sin. We, as New Testament believers, partake in the New Covenant. Paul calls this new spirit the "new self" or the "new man" and at spiritual birth, God creates this in us in RIGHTEOUSNESS and HOLINESS - Eph 4:24. Because of this, Paul calls us a "new creation" - 2 Cor 5:17. We have been given something new, a new human spirit that is as righteous and holy as Christ. In fact, it is indwelt by Christ - 1 Cor 6:17; 1 Cor 3:16; 1 cor 6:19. This new spirit that has been born of God - John 3:3,6 - is a treasure inside us that the Holy Spirit Himself guards by uniting Himself with us - 2 Tim 1:14. Therefore nothing can separate us from God. So, when we are spiritual born again, God creates a new spirit within us and also puts the Holy Spirit within us to seal us - Eze 36:27; 2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30. Because this new part of us is created in righteousness and holiness, God can freely join Himself to it. This part of us, the spirit (not the soul, not the body) is "born of God" - John 3:6 - and therefore cannot sin - 1 John 3:9. I can sin out of my flesh, but my new spirit cannot. It is not the source of sin. It is my source of righteousness and holiness and it has been given to me as a free gift. Therefore, when God looks at me as His new creation, He sees what is REALLY there, a new spirit indwelt by His Holy Spirit. It is mine, I have received it, but it comes from Him as a free gift because I have placed my faith and trust in Christ. So though my body is still under sin's curse, my new spirit is alive to God - Rom 8:10. I have been (so have you) joined to God forever. He will never leave us or forsake because our sins have been forgiven. And nothing shall separate us from Him. I hope this helps, bro. I may not be exactly the answer that you were looking for but I believe that there is plenty of scriptural support. "But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him." - 1 Cor 6:17. Not in dissolution but in union. Your brother in Christ, ChristLifer |
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3 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | Reformer Joe | 52836 | ||
You wrote: "God calls the righteousness that we have in Christ a gift - Rom 6:23." Romans 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God. It does not say that we are made righteous. You wrote: "God does not simply see us as righteous. He does not pretend that we are righteous. He does not see what is not there. He sees us as righteous because we ARE righteous. But this righteousness doesn't not come from ourselves or our actions, it comes from God. We are MADE righteous at salvation - Rom 5:17,19." Notice the verb tenses in Romans 5:19. Many were made sinners (past) because of Adam's transgression. Many WILL BE made righteous (future) because of Christ's obedience. Our becoming righteous in nature is still a future event. Think about what you are saying for a moment. Synonyms for righteous include "holy" and "perfect." You can't be saying that those who have trusted Christ have now been made perfect in character? That is what I would call pretending! Martin Luther and his opponents at the Council of Trent already debated this thoroughly. What you are putting forward is the Roman Catholic view of "infused" righteousness, in which God MAKES us righteous (the only difference is that Rome claims baptism does it; you are claiming conversion does it). The fact is, as Luther adequately pointed out, is that we AREN'T righteous in practice. The term Luther used was "simul iustus et peccator" -- at the same time just and a sinner. God doesn't pretend that we are righteous when we become Christians. He declares us so by virtue of our identification with His perfectly righteous Son. His perfect righteousness is applied to our account just as our sins were applied to His at Calvary. Justification doesn't make us righteous in ourselves any more than the atonement made Jesus a sinner. Jesus earned our righteousness for us, but making us more righteous is a process called sanctification, and that starts at our conversion and continues until we join the Lord. You wrote: "We have been given something new, a new human spirit that is as righteous and holy as Christ." We are indeed re-created, but you fail to show from Scripture how our new natures are as righteous and as holy as Christ. If that is so, commands to Timothy to PURSUE righteousness would be meaningless (1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 2:22). Nowhere does Scripture tell us that our new natures are perfect ones. And our lives bear that out daily. You wrote concerning the new nature: "It is my source of righteousness and holiness and it has been given to me as a free gift." The Bible says: "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption," 1 Corinthians 1:30 "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God." --Philippans 1:9-11 Jesus Christ is our righteousness and the continuous source of the fruit of righteousness, not our new natures. You wrote: 'This part of us, the spirit (not the soul, not the body) is "born of God" - John 3:6 - and therefore cannot sin - 1 John 3:9.' John writes: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." --1 John 3:9 This verse, if taken in isolation from the rest of the epistle, would seem to support your point. However, John makes it clear that we who are born of God do commit sins (1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 2:1-2). Looking at the verse which follows the one you sited gets at John's true point: "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." --1 John 3:10 John is talking about our lifestyle, our practices being the fruit of the life that is within us. First John 3:9 is sandwiched between two verses which contrast the one who is of Satan and the one who is born of God by their overall fruit. It by no means is suggesting that our new natures are absolutely free from sin, or else John is contradicting himself in the same small letter. The fact is that we do have a new nature, but that new nature is not perfectly righteous or holy in itself. To say that our spirits are perfect and our body of flesh is the sinful part of us opens the door to Gnosticism, the very thing that John was writing against in his epistle. If this were true, we could sin all we wanted, because we are "righteous" and we can attribute all our sin to our "flesh." That is so out of harmony with Scripture that it doesn't even merit treatment here. --Joe! |
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4 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | ChristLifer2001 | 52841 | ||
Joe, Romans 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God. It does not say that we are made righteous. Actually it does, my friend. When did you become a sinner? When you sinned? Not according to scripture. You were born into this world a sinner because you were born "in Adam." So when do you become righteous? As soon as you are born again "in Christ." Paul writes in Eph 4:24 that this new self, the new man is in the likeness of God, has been (past tense) created, and is righteous and holy. Notice the verb tenses in Romans 5:19. Many were made sinners (past) because of Adam's transgression. Many WILL BE made righteous (future) because of Christ's obedience. This supports my point, Joe. You did not become a sinner when you sinned. You were born that way. You do not because righteous when you do more and more righteous things. Then it would not be a gift. It would be earned. Your spirit is created in righteousness and holiness. Our becoming righteous in nature is still a future event. Not so, my friend. The death of your physical body has nothing to do with your spiritual state. When did Adam become a sinner? When his body died? No, his body died because he was a sinner. I think that you would agree that if you died at this moment, you would be present with the Lord, wouldn't you. Without His righteousness in you, Joe, you won't see Him. He does not give you the gift of righteousness when you die. He gives it to you when you are born again. Think about what you are saying for a moment. Synonyms for righteous include "holy" and "perfect." You can't be saying that those who have trusted Christ have now been made perfect in character? You're right, I am not saying that we always think or act righteously. But Heb 10:14 says that Christ's offering on the cross has perfected (past tense) for all time (not just when we die) those who are sanctified. It is not your physical death, brother, that makes you holy and righteous. That would be the teachings of the gnostics - that you can't be righteous UNTIL you have escaped the physical body. You are the one infering that we are not righteous until we die. I ask you again, what does the condition of your physical body, your tent, have to do with your spiritual state. None of the verses that speak of our righteousness mention that it is contigent upon our death or our deeds. What you are putting forward is the Roman Catholic view of "infused" righteousness, in which God MAKES us righteous No. What I am putting forward is exactly what Eph 4:24 says - the new self (your spirit, your identity) HAS BEEN created (something new) in God's likeness - righteous and holy. Paul calls this a new creation - 2 Cor 5:17. God classifies mankind according to this new creation - Gal 6:15. Jesus said that the Spirit gives birth to a new spirit in us - John 3:6. Joe, if you wait until you die to be born again of the Spirit of God, you've waited to long. If you wait until you die to become righteous, you won't make it. You don't go to heaven to get righteous, bro, you go to heaven because you ALREADY are righteous. 1 Cor 6:17 says that the Lord joins His Holy Spirit to our spirit. There is no way that God is going to join Himself to an unrighteous, unholy thing. End of Part 1 - see Part 2 |
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5 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | ChristLifer2001 | 52842 | ||
To Joe - Part 2 The fact is, as Luther adequately pointed out, is that we AREN'T righteous in practice. I agree. We are not always righteous in practice. But it is not practice (label this works) that makes us righteous in the first place. It is received as a gift - here and now. Justification doesn't make us righteous in ourselves any more than the atonement made Jesus a sinner. Then, by this same logic, Adam's sin did not make you a sinner either did it? Romans 5:19 refutes this. Adam's sin caused all to be made sinners. As soon as you are born "in Adam", you are a sinner. You exhibit the nature of whoever you are born to. We, as believers, are no longer in Adam, we have been born again of and to God. So we take on the nature of Christ - see 2 Pet 1:4. Jesus earned our righteousness for us, but making us more righteous is a process called sanctification, and that starts at our conversion and continues until we join the Lord. Are you listening to yourself here? You say that Jesus earned our righteousness but then we also have to earn is for ourselves here on earth. If it comes from you, Joe, that it is as filthy rags in His sight. It must come from God. This is the truth that fan the flames of the reformation - that righteousness comes FROM God TO man, not vice versa. It is His righteousness that we now possess in our new spirit, not our own. We are indeed re-created, but you fail to show from Scripture how our new natures are as righteous and as holy as Christ. Yes I did - Eph 4:24. What part of you has been recreated, Joe? What part of you has been born-again? Nowhere does Scripture tell us that our new natures are perfect ones. Not true, Joe. 2 Pet 1:4, Eph 4:24. Jesus Christ is our righteousness and the continuous source of the fruit of righteousness, Amen! And our new self is created in His likeness and indwelt by Him! "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." --1 John 3:10 Amen! Jesus in us works through us to perform the righteous acts for which were we recreated! - Eph 2:10. Your new spirit DOES NOT make you want to sin so that you can blame it on the flesh. That is the view of a babe in Christ who does not know the Christ is in him. Christ is us changes our WANT TO. I no longer WANT TO do what I used to do. That doesn't mean that I am sinless in action or thought. But I am no longer a sinner. I am a saint because God has made me so. Romans 5:17 - For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. This verse says it all. We have received the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Christ reigns in life through us! Thanks for your interaction. Keep growing in grace, ChristLifer2001 |
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6 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | Reformer Joe | 52851 | ||
"I agree. We are not always righteous in practice. But it is not practice (label this works) that makes us righteous in the first place. It is received as a gift - here and now." Jesus Christ is righteous. How do you know? Now look at us. We are not righteous for the very same reason that Jesus is righteous. We still transgress God's law; we still fall short of His glory. Righteous beings do not sin. Christ's righteousness is indeed a gift, but that is different from saying that because Christ is righteous that we have become righteous. The righteousness that will get me into heaven is Christ's own given to me, not any righteousness that God has wrought in me. That is what the Reformers referred to as an "alien righteousness," a righteousness not our own. I am not going over Romans 5:19 again. See that we WERE made sinners bacause of Adam. It does not sy we WERE made righteous because of Christ, but rather that we WILL BE made righteous. That is glorification, not justification. Grammar and sequence of tenses does influence how we are to understand God's word. You wrote: "'Nowhere does Scripture tell us that our new natures are perfect ones." Not true, Joe. 2 Pet 1:4, Eph 4:24." I already addressed Ephesians 4, so no need to re-hash that one. "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." --2 Peter 1:2-4 His divine power has granted us everything we need through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Being made partakers of the divine nature is tied to having escaped the corruption of the world. There are two ways of looking at that, but neither one support your view. The first is to say that we are already a partaker of the divine nature, which does not mean that we ourselves have become divine in nature. We are partakers of the Holy Spirit as Christians. That is the divine nature which gives us everything pertaining to life and godliness. The having escaped the world can refer to something being as good as done (therefore referring to the assurance of the believer). The other view is that once we have escaped from the world that we will be make fully a partaker of Christ's divine nature. While both I think hold elements of truth, I lean toward the first one. Neither says that we have been made divine in nature (i.e. righteous). You wrote: "Amen! Jesus in us works through us to perform the righteous acts for which were we recreated! - Eph 2:10." Agreed. Why is it necessary for Jesus to work through us if our natures are already righteous as He is? You wrote: "Your new spirit DOES NOT make you want to sin so that you can blame it on the flesh." Again, I agree. And yet we still do sin. The righteous do not struggle and fail in sin. Jesus never lost out to sin. That is true righteousness, and one day I will be completely free from sin. That isn't today, because I am not righteous. "That is the view of a babe in Christ who does not know the Christ is in him. Christ is us changes our WANT TO. I no longer WANT TO do what I used to do." Very biblical. However, righteousness is more than "not wanting" to sin, and you have to admit you like sin less than when you were first converted. It is a gradual and growing hatred of our sin that we experience. "That doesn't mean that I am sinless in action or thought. But I am no longer a sinner. I am a saint because God has made me so." God has declared you so because of Christ. He is in the process of making you so (Philippians 2:13), and one day you will assuredly be so. "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." --Philippians 3:12 --Joe! |
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7 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | ChristLifer2001 | 52887 | ||
Joe, Just two comments and then I will let this issue go. Concerning Romans 5:19: I think you are misreading this verse, brother. When you are born "in Adam", you don't become more and more a sinner. You are born a sinner and that is what you will remain (in spite of all your righteous deeds) unless you are born again. Likewise, when you are born again, you are "in Christ" and you receive the gift of righteousness. You don't become more and more righteous, bro. Jesus said to be as perfect (not DO as perfect, but BE) as your Father in Heaven. The only way we are going to get there is if He gives us that perfection. Romans 5:19 is not progressive sanctification, bro. It is simply stating what happens to mankind when they are born again. Allow me to paraphrase so you can understand: Because of Adam's sin, everyone born in him is born a sinner. But because of Christ's obedience and righteousness, everyone who is taken out of Adam and placed into Christ is made righteous. This has been happening for 2000 years now. This verse is NOT talking about performance, bro. It is talking about identification. Are you "in Adam" and therefore a sinner, or are you "in Christ" and therefore have His rigtheousness as a gift (vs. 17). It's that simple. Phil 2:13 - Sure it is God at work in us living out what He has already done. Phil 3:12 - You SERIOUSLY need to look at the context of this verse, bro. Paul is NOT talking about righteousness here, he is talking about physical resurrection - see vs 11,12. According to 1 Thess 5:23, God sanctifies us 1) in spirit 2) in soul and 3) in body. Our spirit is ALREADY sanctified. Our soul is being sanctified and our body will one day be (not this one but) a sanctified one. The bottom line is that if you think you are going to make yourself more holy or sanctified in who ARE (not what you do), then you believe that you are greater than God or at least equal to Him. This lie goes all the way back to the garden of Eden. Heb 10:14 still stands, bro. Christ's work is what has perfected us for all time because we are now identified with Him. I am not here to argue the point. I am just here to point to the truth for all who will accept it. I can't convince anyone, that is His job. :) May you grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. Your bro in Christ, ChristLifer2001 |
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8 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | Reformer Joe | 52897 | ||
"Concerning Romans 5:19: I think you are misreading this verse, brother." No, I think you are misunderstanding/ignoring my point. In your comments on this verse, you are arguing in your post against a position I do not hold and arguments I have not made. I know this verse is not talking about performace. It is talking about our glorification, a separate work of God from our justification. You seem to want to separate righteousness from works. While the righteousness given to us is not based on OUR works, it is inseparable connected to the works of Christ. There is no such thing as INTRINSIC righteousness (our own righteousness) apart from obedience to God. Christ was and is intrinsically righteous. His righteousness is credited to us on the basis of faith. That is to say, HIS perfect obedience is credited to us. HIS works. Works play an important part in our salvation; the only thing is that they are the works that Christ did during his years on earth and not our own works. For us to be declared righteous, it was important not only that Jesus die, but also that he live a perfect, sinless life first. Simply put, inherent righteousness makes no sense apart from works. Again, I do not know why you keep repeating that we receive Christ's righteousness as a gift. I am fully in agreement there. My point is that Scripture does not say that we therefore become righteous instantly. If that were the case, there would have been no need for Christ to come and be righteous as our representative before God. Why do you fail to address the tense issue I raised in the verse? In the entire section comparing the first Adam to the second, justification is described as a past-tense event ("resulted" in justification), while being made righteous is described as a future-tense one? One is past, the other is future. There is no getting around the grammar here. You wrote: 'This verse is NOT talking about performance, bro. It is talking about identification. Are you "in Adam" and therefore a sinner, or are you "in Christ" and therefore have His rigtheousness as a gift (vs. 17). It's that simple.' You are right; it is indeed that simple. And I have HIS righteousness as a gift while at the same time I have not been MADE righteous myself. You fail to distinguish these as the two different things that they are. You keep repeating that righteousness is a gift, as if I am denying that. What I am denying is that Christ's righteousness makes US righteous. And it is your view that is the novelty. Classical Protestantism holds the view that I do. You know, the movement that re-established justification by faith alone in the first place. There likely would have never been a Reformation of the church if Luther had held your view, because it was the same position as Rome. In fact, the very issue we are describing was the defining moment in Luther's conversion, having understood that we are saved by a righteousness not our own, but a foreign righteousness from God. You wrote: "Phil 2:13 - Sure it is God at work in us living out what He has already done." No. "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." --Philippians 2:12-13 What Paul is talking about here is our OBEDIENCE, our sanctification. We are indeed to work, not for our justification (which is wholly a work of God), but in the cooperative effort of sanctification (in which God involves us). And God is at work in us so what WE will will and work for His good pleasure. We are not working toward justification, but we are working toward sanctification, with the power that God supplies in His grace by His Spirit. --Joe! |
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9 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | ChristLifer2001 | 52908 | ||
Joe, !It is talking about our glorification, a separate work of God from our justification. We are already spiritually glorified. Rom 8:30 - and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also GLORIFIED - past tense. !While the righteousness given to us is not based on OUR works, it is inseparable connected to the works of Christ. Amen! !There is no such thing as INTRINSIC righteousness - our own righteousness - apart from obedience to God. Our righteousness comes as a gift from God to us. As long as it is not yours, it does you no good whatsoever. But, as a gift to you, not because of obedience, but because of faith, it is yours. If you think that you are righteous in God's sight depending on your obedience to the Law or "Christian" principles, then you still don't understand righteousness or even Luther's revelation. He recognized that we receive God's righteous SOLELY by faith, apart from our works, before or after salvation. !Why do you fail to address the tense issue I raised in the verse? Joe, I did address the tense, all who have been spiritually born again in Christ since Paul wrote these verses have been made righteous. Should the Lord tarry, all who place their faith and trust in Christ alone will be made righteous the moment they do so. !You are right; it is indeed that simple. And I have HIS righteousness as a gift while at the same time I have not been MADE righteous myself. Then you don't understand the gift. You are saying that you have received the gift of righteousness but that it had done you no good whatsoever because you are not righteous. If I gift you a gift of 100 dollars, then you have 100 dollars. You did not earn it. It originally belonged to me. But I gave it to you as a gift. It is now your money and you would be foolish to not accept it and appropriate it. This is what you are saying about Christ's righteousness that has been given to you. You claim to have already accepted it, but you claim that it is not yours or that you won't open it until you die. What a pity. !What I am denying is that Christ's righteousness makes US righteous. That's too bad, Joe. You obviously don't understand either justification or sanctification because you don't understand your union with Christ. !a foreign righteousness from God. Yes, it is a foreign righteousness. But it is given to us. It then becomes ours in Christ. You still don't understand righteousness, my friend. It is not the absence of sin, it is a positive charateristic of God. Christ did not become righteous because He didn't sin. He was - and is - God. God is righteous. If we are every going to be, we must accept it as a gift from Him to us. !What Paul is talking about here is our OBEDIENCE, our sanctification. Then, brother, you will never be sanctified because you have made works a part of the process. This, despite that fact that 1 Cor 1:2 says that the Corinthians HAVE BEEN sanctified - in spite of their sinful actions - and 1 Cor 6:11 says that we WERE sanctified and Heb 10:10,29 both say that our sanctification is past tense because of Christ's blood. Praying you'll rest in Christ's completed work on your behalf. Your bro, ChristLifer2001 |
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10 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | Reformer Joe | 52920 | ||
"We are already spiritually glorified. Rom 8:30 - and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also GLORIFIED - past tense." Traditionally, the church has understood that the past tense of "glorify" is more or less a past tense demonstrating the certainty of a future event. The reason (aside from the obvious one that we are not like Christ in His glory) is that although all of the actions are in the past tense, not all of them have been completed yet. For example, there are those whom he foreknew and predestined who have not been called yet (the unborn elect and those who are still enemies of God but will be converted). There are those who have been predestined but not yet justified, such as those who will receive Christ tomorrow afternoon. Christ is the only one who has been glorified so far in the truest sense of the word, being the firstborn from among the dead. So even though Paul uses the past tense in all of the verbs, it is clear that in time and space that these actions are not complete for all of those whom He foreknew. But thanks to God's sovereignty, it will happen. You wrote: 'Our righteousness comes as a gift from God to us. As long as it is not yours, it does you no good whatsoever. But, as a gift to you, not because of obedience, but because of faith, it is yours. If you think that you are righteous in God's sight depending on your obedience to the Law or "Christian" principles, then you still don't understand righteousness or even Luther's revelation. He recognized that we receive God's righteous SOLELY by faith, apart from our works, before or after salvation.' See? It is statements like these which show you haven;t been reading what I have written at all. Please show me where I have said that I will be righteous in God's sight by keeping His law. And please do not try and get Luther on your side on this one, because he argued vehemently and specifically against what you are putting forth in your posts. And please explain to me how receiving a gift makes the gift part of my inherent nature. If I get a new pair of shoes, I am not that new pair of shoes. They are mine, but there is still a distinction between me and the gift. And that is the distinction you fail to observe. We receive Christ's righteousness as a gift when we are converted. You are taking it as axiomatic that possessing Christ's righteousness makes US righteous. The two are not the same thing, and neither Scripture nor the historic teachings of evangelical Protestantism share your view. You wrote: "That's too bad, Joe. You obviously don't understand either justification or sanctification because you don't understand your union with Christ." Well, I am certainly glad I have you here to straighten me out with your post. Here I have been going along with the understanding held by the vast majority of the greatest teachers of evangelical Christianity over the past 500 years (not to mention the teachings of the early church), and all I needed was the "true light" from ChristLifer2001! Boy am I glad you have taken the time to show me how God's church has been so wrong and you in your vast wisdom are correct. --Joe! |
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11 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | ChristLifer2001 | 52931 | ||
Joe, I've tried to offer my thoughts concerning the "apparent" discrepancies between past, present, and future sanctification by demonstrating that there is biblical justification for examining man's components - spirit, soul, and body. The same analogy would apply to the righteousness that we have as Christians. Our new spirit is righteous, our soul is being made righteous, and we will one day have a righteous body to indwell. However, you will not hear or consider any of this, despite the cited scriptures. You obviously feel that it is the teachings of "the greatest teachers of evangelical Christianity over the past 500 years" that is the standard and revealer of all truth although the Holy Spirit makes it explicit that that is what He does in us. The majority vote does not determine truth. Neither does the minority vote. Truth is determined by what God says. Period. Concerning Romans 8:30, you wrote: "Traditionally, the church has understood that the past tense of "glorify" is more or less a past tense demonstrating the certainty of a future event." This demonstrates the type of interpretation twisting that "tradition" does to nullify the Word of God. God's Word says in Romans 8:10 that we HAVE BEEN justified, that we HAVE BEEN glorified. Even when it is there before your eyes in black and white that this is glorification is past tense, you deny it. You cry "foul" and must resort to the teachings of the church or to commentaries because you obviously feel that God's Word cannot be understood apart from the illuminating work of the church. The difference between my approach and yours is that I am just naive enough to take God at His Word and say, "Lord, You say that I have been glorified, would You teach me what this means." Tradition says, "Impossible! Despite the text, this cannot be true. My experience is the standard of truth and I have not yet experienced this. Therefore, God cannot possibly mean what He says and I must seek the hidden meaning." And for some reason you feel that you must resort to undue sarcasm of me and my simple faith in taking God at His Word. That is your choice. But I will not engage you further in exchange. There are many people who come to this forum seeking the truth of God's Word not the "teachings of the church". Probably an overwhelming majority are here because the church offers no real answers and it is the church that causes the confusion in the first place. All it can offer is denominationalism and self-righteous attitudes that condemn anyone who does not agree with their traditions and teachings. It is quite obvious that you have set up yourself and your "traditions" as the standard of truth here on this forum and woe be to anyone who does not agree with you. They are categorized, labeled, and demeaned in front of the whole forum. All in the name of Christ. How sad. ChristLifer2001 |
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12 | Imputed Righteousness | Rom 4:6 | Reformer Joe | 52933 | ||
You wrote: 'This demonstrates the type of interpretation twisting that "tradition" does to nullify the Word of God. God's Word says in Romans 8:10 that we HAVE BEEN justified, that we HAVE BEEN glorified.' "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness." --Romans 8:10 The words "justified" and "glorified" do not even APPEAR in this verse! The spirit being alive refers to regeneration. Rather than ranting about tradition, how about commenting on my argument on its merits (or lack thereof). Your ambivalence to "the teachings of the church" is unscriptural in itself. The teachers of the church are men gifted by the Holy Spirit for the purpose of -- you guessed it -- teaching. 'The difference between my approach and yours is that I am just naive enough to take God at His Word and say, "Lord, You say that I have been glorified, would You teach me what this means."' If that is your SOLE means of determining the meaning of the message of Scripture, then that is indeed naive. "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues." --1 Corinthians 12:28 "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers" --Ephesians 4:11 The teaching ministry of the word is a God-ordained means of grace and an avenue by which the Holy Spirit reveals to us His truth. It is sola Scriptura (Scripture alone is our source of revelation) but not "solo Scriptura" (just me, the Spirit, and my Bible). Take a look in the New Testament at the warnings to heed sound teaching. You wrote: 'Tradition says, "Impossible! Despite the text, this cannot be true. My experience is the standard of truth and I have not yet experienced this. Therefore, God cannot possibly mean what He says and I must seek the hidden meaning."' Bad tradition does that. Good, Bible-based tradition says, "We the church have examinied this issue thoroughly, and this is what we together, studying the Scriptures, have concluded." Because of the traditions of the church, we do not have to go through and argue about things among ourselves such as the deity of Christ or the Trinity. It is sheer arrogance to insist that those thousands of individuals who have studied the Bible their whole lives in the original languages, whom God has used in important junctures in the history of the church to preserve His truth, and whose fruit puts both of ours to shame do not understand justification and sanctification, two of the most fundamental elements of the faith. You wrote: 'There are many people who come to this forum seeking the truth of God's Word not the "teachings of the church".' You speak as if those two are separate things. The teachings of God's church are based on God's word, not thought up in a vacuum. To insist that the two are diametrically opposed shows your disdain for what God has built for the last 2000 years and a false sense of adequacy to "go it alone" apart from the means God has established for your understanding. "And for some reason you feel that you must resort to undue sarcasm of me and my simple faith in taking God at His Word. That is your choice. But I will not engage you further in exchange." I agree that it would be fruitless, seeing that you are unteachable. The sarcasm is not undue, however, because you are guilty of precisely the things that I have brought to your attention. You have accused me and the majority of the evangelical church of Jesus Christ of misunderstanding, of basically ignoring the Bible in defense of false teachings. You have consistently misinterpreted the biblical (and the church's) view on sanctification as "works-righteousness." My guess is that you did not even look at one of the articles I provided for you, having already concluded that you couldn't possibly be wrong. If that isn't pride, I certainly must be wrong on that one, too. You may feel demeaned, but that is nothing like how you demean the utter righteousness and holiness of the Lord Jesus Christ by saying that we are identical to Him in our spirits. Horrible and blasphemous. --Joe! |
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