Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does a person who never hears about Jesu | Rom 2:14 | DocTrinsograce | 152201 | ||
Dear Angel, You wrote, "If I get you correctly... no one unless the Gospel is preached to them can get to know God?" Yes, that is correct. No one can know the Father except through the Son. Furthermore, there is no way to please the Father except through the single means of redemption He has provided: the Gospel. There is only one way to God and that is through the way that He has provided, through the Gospel. These are very fundamental Christian doctrines very clearly taught in Scripture. It rather surprises me that you are not conversant with them. We can work our way through the Bible verses if you are really interested. You wrote, "so there's a limitation to God?" I've heard people say this before, and, frankly, it is quite puzzling to me. If God says something, it is so. God defines right, wrong, sin, righteousness, holiness, etc. How does that limit God? What I see in Scripture is that He is completely in charge (Psalms 115:3; 135:6; Job 23:13; Daniel 4:35; Ephesians 1:11). What Scripture says is that God does whatever He wants to do. God does *as* He pleases, exactly *as* He pleases, and *only* as He pleases. God created this universe for His own pleasure. God can save any one that He wants to save. He wouldn't be any less if He chose to save no one. However, very lovingly and mercifully, He has chosen to save some men. He has done so by very specifically articulating *how* that can come about. (Just as He did for Adam and Moses.) How that can possibly limit Him is quite honestly beyond my ability to understand. You wrote, "I mean according to the material presented, a death mute who lives in the wilderness of say Peru, Latin America, will surely die because God is not able to teach his/her spirit about Jesus. (sic)" Note that you chose the word "able." Where has anyone said that "God is not able?" Do you suppose that God is not able to have caused the deaf-mute to be born elsewhere? Do you suppose that God is unable to send missionaries to Peru? Do you suppose that He is not able to drop leaflets from heaven with the Gospel message on all of Peru? Angel! Think BIGGER! There is nothing that He cannot do! Your position is what is called universalism. The Bible does not affirm such a position. You wrote, "The fact is that God's Spirit saves!" Actually, that is not strictly true. Although we have a triune God, each Member of the Trinity have specific work that they do. Now, I have to admit, since they are all One, it seems clear to my human mind that if One of Them does something then All of Them do it. But the problem is that the Bible makes a distinction. If the Bible makes this distinction, then I am constrained to do no less. While it is true that there is "overlap," Jesus is said to be the Savior. It is He Who saves. (Go ahead, try to find a single verse in Scripture where it says the Holy Spirit saves.) In general, from a soteriological viewpoint, the works of the Members of the Trinity are described as follows: The Father chooses, the Son saves, and the Holy Spirit seals. You wrote, "part of our Christian obligation is to pray that the message of Christ is brought to all men (including those instances when some may be ignorant of Christ)." More than that, we are to proclaim the Gospel. However, how can we do that if we state it is something that it is not? Universalism, pluralism, or misrepresentation of the attributes of God do not accomplish these goals. Let us learn to state the Gospel exactly as the Scripture states it -- no more, and no less. Anything else is a very grave sin of presumption. In Him, Doc PS If you would like to respond to any portion of my post, please do so on an individual subject basis (e.g., the exclusivity of Christ, roles of the Members of the Trinity, universalism, etc.). Otherwise we will get too far afield. I see this frequently happen, defeating our ability to deal adequately with any given topic. Per contra, if you are more interested in protecting or promulgating your position than in arriving at truth, I'd just as soon set aside this discussion. Not only would it be a violation of the forum standard in promoting a denominational bias, my family is facing rather a lot right now. I'd just as soon expend my energies more productively in that direction, unless, of course, people really want to wrestle with the Biblical message. Please excuse my impatience, but this whole "God is love and only love" stuff is getting a little old. |
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2 | Does a person who never hears about Jesu | Rom 2:14 | JCrichton | 152207 | ||
Hi, Doc! "You wrote, "If I get you correctly... no one unless the Gospel is preached to them can get to know God?" Yes, that is correct. No one can know the Father except through the Son." So the Gospel and the Son are analogous... that is Jesus does not exist outside of the Gospel? "How that can possibly limit Him is quite honestly beyond my ability to understand" That was precisely my point! The Holy Scripture is not a script which God has to adhere to... the Holy Scripture is there for our instruction and edification! To claim God will save only certain number of people and these only through a prescribe format--that is limiting God! "Note that you chose the word "able." Where has anyone said that "God is not able?"" When you prescribe that only through the Gospel (which implies someone preaching to that man) could we get to know God and abide in God... this all implies that God is dependent upon man to bring man to Him; instead of the other way around... Jesus did not say: those who are brought to the Father will the Father then bring to me and I will not reject them... Jesus said: those who the Father send to Me, I will not reject! He was speaking even before the Gospel had been written... ergo, God has the Power and Authority to bring to Salvation (Jesus--resurrection and life) all whom He pleases! "Angel! Think BIGGER! There is nothing that He cannot do!" Again, my point, exactly! I do not think that there's limitations to God... but Salvation is not dependent upon missionaries! If you follow the proposed escenario, you will note that there was no middle-man interjected... God is able to touch human existence in the middle of nowhere as well as in the middle of a crowded train without the assistance of a single person! It is the Holy Spirit that searches the hearts and the most intimate places of man... not another man; and it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins and of Salvation! God's Holy Spirit operates beyond the confines of the Bible... directly in the pure existence of creation! "(Go ahead, try to find a single verse in Scripture where it says the Holy Spirit saves.)" You started out so good: God is God... but then reverted to "show me" Jesus is resurrected by God, through whom? And through whom are we to be resurrected? There isn't one single Scriptural passage that denies that the Holy Spirit resurrected Jesus and that our hope is that He who resurrected Jesus will in turn resurrect us in like manner! (Romans 8:11; Romans 6:5) So please do not confine yourself to the single written value of text... go beyond that (back to God is God--1 Corinthians 12:3) and view my words accordingly... "if you are more interested in protecting or promulgating your position" What is the position I am seeking to protect? That Christ died so that all may be saved? Did not say that! That everything is God? Did not say that either! That salvation comes to a few selected by some? Did not say that! That the Holy Spirit is the means by which God Saves? Scripture says that! That Jesus is not the Savior? Never said that! That God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit can be divided into seperate and distinct beings? Never! That a hypothetical situation where a person is not exposed to missionaries or the Bible and that that person goes straight to Hell? Well, no! God is Omnipotent and can go beyond humans and technology directly to an individual and convict Him of the Truth! You say it is not Biblical?... then you've never heard of Saul! (No, not the pseudo kind of Israel!) Further clarification: "God is love and only love..." who keeps saying that? I certainly have never claimed so! God is Omnipotent, capable of great Love, great Mercy, and great Judgment! "(e.g., the exclusivity of Christ, roles of the Members of the Trinity, universalism, etc" These are simply labels which makes it easier for the human mind to cope with God's unsearcheable being! Though each member of the Holy Trinity is salient at specific moments in Insrael's history... they are intertwined eternally in Oneness that cannot be separated into blocks or bits of God: "I and the Father are One!" (John 10:30) No one can say Jesus is Lord, if not by the Holy Spirit! (1 Corinthians 12:3--paraphrased) God Bless! Angel |
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3 | Does a person who never hears about Jesu | Rom 2:14 | DocTrinsograce | 152224 | ||
Dear Angel, You wrote, "The Holy Scripture is not a script which God has to adhere to... the Holy Scripture is there for our instruction and edification!" Quite frankly, that is a very heretical statement! What you are saying is that God can tell us one thing and then do another. You need to look closely at the orthodox views of Scripture, so that you can know more clearly what you are rejecting. If this is your perspective, then you are being self-contradictory by quoting Scripture and my quoting of Scripture will carry no weight for you. This is like reasoning with a man who denies logic. If God is the capricious being you describe, then we are all in deep trouble. We can count on nothing. Indeed, we can know nothing. In Him, Doc |
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4 | Does a person who never hears about Jesu | Rom 2:14 | JCrichton | 152257 | ||
Hi, Doc! "Quite frankly, that is a very heretical statement! What you are saying is that God can tell us one thing and then do another." Not so... I am saying that God did not reveal all that He is and all of His Ways... the Holy Scripture is not a measuring device nor a contractual obligation which binds God, as the old whiches and warlocks themes, to do as prescribed by our understanding. When we seek to apply something to God because that is what we understand, we are not acting of pure enlightenment... we are acting of pure finite understanding... this happened frequently with Israel... God's own people loved to quote Scripture and to apply them as they understood it... we have a tremendous example in Ezekiel 18 and in the woman caught in "pure adultery" that was brought to Jesus... another perfect example is the passage that is still quoted by many in today's society ("an eye for an eye"); just because something is written down it does not mean that God is limited to the expressed text according to our definitions! God is not intent on fulfilling our wishes... He is intent in rescuing us from death, in Jesus Christ! "You need to look closely at the orthodox views of Scripture, so that you can know more clearly what you are rejecting." I will never reject Scripture... man's interpretations of Scripture is another matter... where some see a God bent on saving an exclusive predestined few while condemning a whole mess of other people... I see man's rejection of God and his rebellious whims leading him away from Christ and into Hell--God is not be the cause of man damnation; man's rebellious disobedience is! "If God is the capricious being you describe, then we are all in deep trouble. We can count on nothing. Indeed, we can know nothing." Again, your terminologies! Seeking to have a prearranged contract where God is fully obligated to save some people while these same people do not even have to acknowledge God's Authority... now, that is capricious! Just as we cannot empty an ocean into a bathtub, neither can we empty God into the confines of the Holy Bible! That is my statement, worded differently here! God Bless! Angel |
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