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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | Brent Douglass | 43666 | ||
Part 2 -- My other question is regarding the following statements "Saving faith is a gift from God bestowed upon those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world... This view of God "Almighty" is the view held by the fathers of the Protestant faith, and was based on the Scripture alone. The modern popular view that places salvation in the hands of fallen mankind is dead wrong." What I perceive as a difference here may be simply my reading into your words based on identifying certain catch phrases directly with Calvin's teachings. I don't think that the Scriptures directly state anywhere that God "predestinated" to belief but rather to conformity to Christ. There is a certain mystery still present (until eternity) in revelation surrounding what actually takes place between the initiation of the Holy Spirit and the faith that is produced. The mystery (as yet unrevealed secret) results in various theories that can greatly influence one's theology but are not central to salvation. I believe we have a difference here in the definition of "almighty" and-or "sovereign" that significantly affects our theology but doesn't change the primary focus on the depravity of man, the holiness of God, the necessity of Christ's intervention, and the centrality of the Spirit's work; nor is there any question of the truth of the Trinity here. While we would both use the term, I don't believe God's power, authority, or sovereignty are compromised by His deliberate setting the limits to which His Spirit would go in terms of irresistability but still making salvation theoretically available to every person (while knowing in advance who would be rendered poor in spirit by His persistent conviction and proof through the Spirit and who would blaspheme His Spirit). I know this brings up the question of the meaning of the term "knowledge" -- as you brought out in your post on the other thread. However, it's late, and that will have to wait until there is more time. (Based on my schedule, it may be some time, but I will do my best to respond when I can sit down long enough to prayerfully and clearly synthesize study and consideration since my last posting to Kalos on that.) Finally, I need to clarify who you meant when you used the phrase, "the view held by the fathers of the Protestant faith, and was based on the Scripture alone" in your posting. I guess I'm assuming that "Calvin and those who associated themselves with him" would be an accurate rendering. Are you including Martin Luther? Do you include Jacobus Arminius (certainly not a 'modern' by any stretch but not quite an exact contemporary of Calvin, and certainly expunged from any list of Calvin's followers once he began to think that there may have been potential errors within Calvin's Institutes)? I was a little uncomfortable with the sub-phrase "based on the Scripture alone" and wanted clarification as well. Were you referring to certain statements of Calvin as being wholly unpolluted with the reasoning of man, or simply comparing them to heresies that brought in superstitions, false religions, and-or false revelations of some other kind? There's certainly a sense in which the purity of some statement is apparently being compared with the impurity and corruption of something else. |
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2 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | John Reformed | 44039 | ||
Dear Brent, You said: I don't think that the Scriptures directly state anywhere that God "predestinated" to belief but rather to conformity to Christ. Eph 1:5,6 "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." You also asked: I was a little uncomfortable with the sub-phrase "based on the Scripture alone" and wanted clarification as well. Were you referring to certain statements of Calvin as being wholly unpolluted with the reasoning of man, or simply comparing them to heresies that brought in superstitions, false religions, and-or false revelations of some other kind? In response, I in no way believe in the infallible interpretation of scripture by any man or church. Sola Scritura (Scripture alone) is a doctrine of the Reforned faith that claims: Sola Scriptura: The Scripture Alone is the Standard The doctrine that the Bible alone is the ultimate authority was the "Formal Principle" of the Reformation. In 1521 at the historic interrogation of Luther at the Diet of Worms, he declared his conscience to be captive to the Word of God saying, "Unless I am overcome with testimonies from Scripture or with evident reasons -- for I believe neither the Pope nor the Councils, since they have often erred and contradicted one another -- I am overcome by the Scripture texts which I have adduced, and my conscience is bound by God's Word." Similarly, the Belgic Confession stated, "We believe that the holy Scriptures fully contain the will of God, and that whatsoever man ought to believe unto salvation is sufficiently taught therein...Neither may we consider any writings of men, however holy these men may have been, of equal value with those divine Scriptures nor ought we to consider custom or the great multitude, or antiquity, or succession of times and persons, or councils, decrees or statutes, as of equal value with the truth of God... Therefore, we reject with all our hearts whatsoever does not agree with this infallible rule" (VII). As the Scripture says, Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Thy law....I will bow down toward Thy holy temple, And give thanks to Thy namefor Thy lovingkindness and Thy truth; For Thou hast magnified Thy word according to all Thy name....You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (Psalm 119:18; Psalm 138:2; II Tim. 3:14-17). Your Brother John |
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3 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | Brent Douglass | 44054 | ||
Thanks for the clarification, John. I'm glad to hear that it the reference is only to the word itself, and my concern about your statements is assuaged. You don't need to clarify further which specific doctrinal statements regarding definitions of sovereignty were "based on the Scripture alone." I think I understand your meaning that the intention was consistently to base the doctrines only on the Scriptures and not on previous counsels or papal decrees. I certainly respect that about the Reformed movement as a whole and specifically about the great leaders of the movement at its roots. Regarding the passage you referred to about predestination, I am in whole-hearted agreement that the adoption as sons (as well as the conformity to the image of Christ) was predestined before the foundation of the world. It is poverty of spirit in response to the Spirit's conviction -- leading to spiritual enlightenment and repentance (which then leads to the Spirit's development of faith and faithfulness) that I am not convinced was predestined but simply foreknown. I believe that our predestined adoption as sons takes place sequentially after faith -- NOT before. Therefore, the sequence leading up through faith appears to be foreknown, and the predestination begins from the results. While the overall process itself is a gift from God, undeserved, and consistently initiated by Him -- my current impression from the Scriptures is that the final penetration of the loving corrective conviction of the Spirit is deliberately left to the will of the individual soul. The will can either give in to the irrefutable evidence offered (resulting in recognition of spiritual poverty), or he (or she) can blaspheme the Spirit (leading to the impossibility of forgiveness). God knew all the scenarios and each individual's results prior to anyone's conception, but we can only be sure when the day of judgment comes. However, there is typically significant evidence of belief or unbelief in a person's life, and we can speak to them on the basis of that evidence. Only Christ Himself (or potentially a prophet) would have the ability to declare someone's heart impenetrable and beyond conviction according to the limitations laid down by God. Christ did so to some of the Pharisees who refused the irrefutable demonstration of His conduct and power and the accompanying conviction of the Spirit upon them. I'm still working through specifics of these ideas and testing them to make sure they are biblical, which is why I present them to you and to the list. |
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4 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | John Reformed | 44072 | ||
Dear Brent, I am sure you would agree that in the interpretation of Scripture we must deal with what the word actualy says and not with what we want it to say or what we think it should say. Your disregard of the word "predestined" in Eph 1:5 surprised me! You said that it could mean foreknown (the meaning foreknown is a topic in itself). Nevertheless, lets look into the meaning of predestined in the Bible. 4309 proorizĂ´; from 4253 and 3724; to predetermine, foreordain:--predestined(6). 1) to predetermine, decide beforehand 2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity 3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand (Strong's Concordance) Easton's Bible Dictionary Predestination This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29,30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events. This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight." Hodge has well remarked that, "rightly understood, this doctrine (1) exalts the majesty and absolute sovereignty of God, while it illustrates the riches of his free grace and his just displeasure with sin. It enforces upon us the essential truth that salvation is entirely of grace. That no one can either complain if passed over, or boast himself if saved. It brings the inquirer to absolute self-despair and the cordial embrace of the free offer of Christ. In the case of the believer who has the witness in himself, this doctrine at once deepens his humility and elevates his confidence to the full assurance of hope". God Bless Brent, John Reformed |
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