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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | Brent Douglass | 41287 | ||
John, Thank you for your explanation. I'm finding our dialogue helpful in terms of getting to know you and in drawing out my understanding of the Scriptures, and I appreciate your patient input. There are a couple of places that I want to quote and explain where I think we may differ. I will quote you and offer my responses as clearly as possible before explaining further. Thank you again for bearing with me in my wordy responses. It looks like I'll need to break this into 2 responses. Clarification -- Part 1) I think you are correct that we are in agreement as to the beginning portion of your posting. I would use different wording from your quotation below, but I think it's simply a matter of word preference rather than disagreement. Let me know if I'm mistaken on this. "There is not a single person who does not believe that God exists. The problem lies in their suppression of that knowledge. That is the condition of mankind as a result of Adam's fall." I agree that every person has the opportunity to observe the revelation of God's existence; however, I wouldn't classify this as "belief" unless the observations and their obvious conclusion are not completely suppressed. Immediate and consistent suppression of evidence apparently results in a complete absence of even passive faith. (This refusal to face the obvious revealed truth from God -- when coupled with the determined and final rejection of the Spirit's conviction upon a person -- appears to be the one unforgiveable sin, but this is a side idea not immediately necessary to recognize our level of agreement here.) Again, I think this is simply a matter of word usage, and I apologize if I appear to be wrangling over words, but I want to make sure that our identified agreements are accurate. |
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2 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | John Reformed | 41495 | ||
Dear Brent, The human race in it's fallen condition wants nothing to do with God or His Son. They are in rebellion against Him and would crucify Jesus again if given the opportunity. I don't believe we truly understand the depth to which Adam and his decendents have fallen. I contend that unless a man be born again he cannot even see the Kingdom of God! Being dead in trespasses and sin, he has no desire for spiritual truth and in fact cannot even recieve it. His salvation is totaly dependent on the grace of God. Saving faith is a gift from God bestowed upon those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world. He chose them not on the basis of any work that He foresaw them performing in the future (that would make God dependent on something outside of Himself) but according to His good pleasure. This view of God "Almighty" is the view held by the fathers of the Protestant faith, and was based on the Scripture alone. The modern popular view that places salvation in the hands of fallen mankind is dead wrong. Consider Pauls description of the "deadness" of the unregenerated (Ro 1 and 2). Can a dead man raise himself to new life through an action of his own will? The unregenerate man is a child of the devil. John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." Eph 2:1,2 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sin in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." 1 John 5:19 "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." Rom 3:9-12 "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." Until one gains a true perception of the hopelessness of fallen mankind he can never appreciate the fullness of God,s grace to those of us who have been saved. John |
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3 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | Brent Douglass | 43659 | ||
Dear John, You are right that we are in disagreement upon some significant points of John Calvin's doctrines, as you noted in your recent post in response to my discussion with Kalos from a year ago. I am definitely not a 5-point Calvinist. While I have no expectation of changing your views, I hope that I can shed some light on how those of us who are not fully convinced that Calvin and his followers were accurate in everything can still claim full submission to the same Scriptures that our Reformed brothers do. I do not disagree with most of what you say here, although there are once again a few significant points that I would question and-or with which I would disagree. I'll probably need a couple of posts to respond. We definitely have a different reading of Jesus' meaning in John 3 regarding what it means to "see" the kingdom of God. This seems to me to refer to our future in heaven -- where the "pure in heart" will "see God." I believe the new birth (being born of the Spirit) takes place immediately AFTER faith, and I think that you believe the new birth comes first; please correct me if I'm wrong. I certainly believe that all initiation and conviction comes from the Spirit and not from unregenerate man. However, I believe this is not forced upon us irresistably -- by God's design not by any inability on God's part. I believe that conviction and even certain levels of enlightenment from the Spirit come prior to faith, but that Spiritual-spiritual regeneration comes upon belief. I can not agree with Arminius that new believers directly opt to believe, but the hidden working of belief and the joint involvement of the Spirit and human will is a mystery to me. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the involvement of the will of man comes into play prior to belief and is, therefore, a part of the process. The nearest I can come to a theory on this is that there is an ability to internally either admit or finally reject one's spiritual poverty in the face of the Spirit's persistent conviction and that this is God's requirement. This "humility" or "poverty of spirit" opens the door that the Spirit chooses otherwise not to open, and it is "the poor in spirit" who will inherit the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:3). This is the trait with which Christ opens His sermon, and it is the trait that is foundational to all the others; the corresponding absence of this trait results in blasphemy against the Spirit -- the only unforgiveable sin. While use of the term "humility" as the means to grace (Ps 138:6, Isaiah 57:15, James 4:6, 1 Pe 5:5) seems a problematic trait to claim for oneself, the parallel and more specific term "poor in spirit" speaks specifically of recognizing one's "fallen condition" and "hopelessness" -- to use your terminology. This trait does not make anyone more worthy -- any more than personal recognition of incompetence would better qualify a job applicant for a desired position. Nevertheless, it appears to open a door of influence that the omnipowerful Spirit enters through after patiently knocking and deliberately awaiting admittance. God has set the limit Himself, and the all-powerful Spirit yields to the will of the Father and Son just as the Son always yielded to the will of the Father in His work on this earth. As a loving father of my own children who wants them to have a heart to do what is right -- I also set limits on the discipline I use to convince my children against their own wills to submit to my ways and God's ways (even in many areas where I'm certain that I'm right). |
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4 | Clarification from John Reformed...? | Rom 1:16 | John Reformed | 43664 | ||
Dear Brent, John Calvin could talk until he was blue in the face, but if what he said did not conform to scripture he would have no influence on this child of God! As far is his being accurate on everything he says, I can't reply because I hav'nt read all that much of Calvin thus far. You wrote: "I believe the new birth (being born of the Spirit) takes place immediately AFTER faith," Please explain where that faith comes from. If your answer is "from God", then I ask is it a gift? If you say we can refuse this gift, I would reply Rom 11:29...for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Gotta go to bed. will continue in am, God willing. John |
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