Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | True Disciples - eternal importance | Luke 14:26 | seeking4truth | 101376 | ||
Thanks, Pastor Glenn. I will try to keep those things in mind. But in my particular case, I am not a good discerner of what things are of eternal importance and what things are of temporal importance. As I stated earlier, it seems to very much depend upon who one talks to as to the priority of things. Some would list all of these things as of eternal importance: water baptism, speaking in tongues (otherwise you are not indwelt by the Spirit), using a particular translation (otherwise you don't have the Word of God), doing good works (to prove your faith), keeping the Law, being Reformed, being Calvinist, being Arminian. All these are criteria that some use as eternal "measuring rods." I find it difficult to know which ones are truly valid and scriptural and which ones are not. (Side-note: The Calvinist would say that the Arminian is not saved because the Arminian does not believe in a sovereign God. So his "disbelief in the sovereignty of God" is used to prove that the Arminian does believe in the God of the Bible and, therefore, is not saved. I am just using this as an illustration, please don't anyone take up sides here and pursue this subject in this thread. The subject of this particular thread is much more important to me.) But, Pastor Glenn, if I may, can I demonstrate how touchy this subject of matters of eternal importance can be? Humor me here for a couple of minutes and if you have a good, solid answer, please don't hesitate to share it. Jesus gave some criteria for those who would follow Him (i.e. Christians). We can debate all day long on the standards that WE want to use for judging "true" disciples of Christ. But let's consider what Jesus said: "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." - Mark 16:17,18 Here in this passage, Jesus Himself list some of His criteria that true believers would be known by. He lists 5 specific things: 1. They will cast out demons 2. They will speak with new tongues 3. They will pick up serpents 4. They will drink poison without ill effect 5. They can heal the sick by the laying on of hands Forum members, please note that I am NOT saying that these are MY criteria. These are criteria that Jesus Himself said would characterize those who believe in Him. Let's look at a similar passage: "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you." - Luke 10:19 Here Jesus says that His followers can tread on serpents and scorpions. And He notes that they have power over who I would take to be Satan. Again, these are not my words. These are the words of Christ Himself. But I have to ask, is this the same criteria we use to judge whether or not others are believers? I don't think so. I wouldn't (just being honest here). I am not going to try to cast out devils, pick up poisonous snakes, drink poison, step on snakes and scorpions, I have never spoken in tongues, and I am very careful what liberties I take in my "authority over Satan." Now, please allow me to demonstrate my dilema. By the standards of Jesus Christ Himself, I am not a true believer. By the standards of most conservative, fundamental Christian, I am not a Bible-believing Christ myself because I do not personally adhere to this teaching of Christ in the Bible nor would I ever exhort anyone on this board to "prove" his/her discipleship through these tests. So what does that make me? I surely don't know. Yes, I've said a "sinner's prayer." But one cannot find that formula in the Bible. To my knowledge, Jesus never once told someone to invite Him into their heart. He knocks on the door of one of His churches in the book of Revelation but that presumes that He is already in their hearts. So I have to confess to God that I don't exhibit the signs that Jesus gave whereby His true followers and disciples would be known. Pastor Glenn, it would seem that being a disciple of Christ is an eternal issue. But, frankly, sir, I don't measure up to Jesus' own criteria. And to be honest, I don't have the faith to prove my discipleship the way that He demands. What am I to do? Sincerely, seeking4truth |
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2 | True Disciples - eternal importance | Luke 14:26 | Aixen7z4 | 101398 | ||
Aixen Answer, part B. Back to the passage in question. The signs in Mark 16 were for the original apostles to observe. They were not instructions for the converts to try to manifest or to look on as proof of their salvation. They were not for subsequent evangelists to observe, except perhaps in virgin territory where the Gospel has not been preached before, and they were not for subsequent believers such as you and me to look for in order to know if we are saved. How do I know all of this? From the context; the context of the passage, the context of their lives, the context of the rest of the word of God. Now, I have suggested that you think about those passages carefully, prayerfully and in context. I have also suggested that you put aside what others think about them. So you would have to put aside what I have said here. Please do not feel that you have to agree with me. Nevertheless, I trust that this exercise has been helpful. I expect that others will share with you their understanding of the passages. Unfortunately, we may disagree among ourselves and you will be reading varying explanations. I think you should try to get your own understanding. The Holy Spirit in you will direct you. May I say again that that your questions seem most reasonable. I am confident that you will find satisfactory answers in the Bible as you pursue them. Already you have shown good understanding. On the question as to whether Jesus teaches hate, for example, you have stated that Jesus must have meant something special when he said we would have to hate our relatives. I would not even worry if you cannot quite put it into words. That is the way it is. When passages seem to conflict, and when teachers disagree, it is for me a time to get alone with God and dig deep. May God bless you as you continue to seek truth. I pray that god will give you assurance of salvation and the answer to all your questions. Please share not only your questions but also your insights with us. |
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3 | Christ and Christians? | Luke 14:26 | seeking4truth | 101426 | ||
I wanted to thank you for the time, effort, consideration, and thoughtfulness that you have put into your answers to this question. I can tell that you, too, are seeking to understand the truth as best as we can. I especially appreciate that you are stressing the importance of context. The more I study my Bible (and the less I find I know), the more important that context becomes. If I understand your answer correctly, you are advocating a principle, not only of considering context, but of considering that not everything written in the Bible is written directly for us. And you have cited excellent examples to show where we should determine who is speaking, to whom, and the relevance of whether what is being said applies to all persons at all times. This technique is close to what I suppose the Bible scholars call "dispensationalism" - that God deals with different people in different times in different ways. This method of interpretation can certainly seem to be helpful. It allows us to, though you may not like the term, "pick and choose" what parts of the Bible apply to us and what parts do not. For instance, I don't see many Christians taking a lamb to the church on Sunday morning to be sacrificed at the altar. Why not? Because a thorough study of the scriptures seems to support that the old sacrificial system has been done away with and, as Hebrews says, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins. So, in this particular case, it would seem that the scriptures themselves support that God's methods change over time. The signs that Jesus lists in Mark 16 become a little sticker don't they? I wouldn't have much opposition if I said that an animal sacrifice is no longer necessary (although those of Judaism would probably disagree with me). But if I start to say that the signs that Jesus gave are no longer applicable to the church, then my assertion becomes much more tenuous because: 1. Christians claim to follow Christ and His teachings, YET they themselves are picking and choosing WHICH of His teachings apply to them and which ones don't. 2. And, to the best of my knowledge, I don't recall Jesus saying that all of these signs were only for a particular group (other than believers). It would be similar if I claimed to be a follower of Buddha but did not believe that ALL of his teachings applied to me. Most Christians operate under some form of this "a la carte" Christianity. I am not saying that it is right nor wrong to do this. But I am curious as to WHY Christians do what they do. After all, most Christians claim to follow the teachings of their leader. But if pressed about this (as in Mark 16), many (if not most) of the Christians in the circles that I travel would say, "Yes, that is what Christ taught but it doesn't apply to me." So my question is, how can we claim that we are followers of Christ if we do not follow His clear teaching? What gives the disciples the right to determine which teachings of their teacher apply to them and which ones don't? That, my friend, is where I am at. I am looking at the specific teachings of Jesus and trying to determine, as best I can, whether or not I should even wear the name of Christian and say that I believe in Jesus. It is difficult for me to say that Jesus is my Lord if I am not willing to do what He says. It is difficult for me to say that He taught the truth if I am willing (and sometimes eager) to relegate His truths to other people and other time periods. But in the end, I find that I have to do this or His teachings make no sense. For instance, at one point Jesus sends out His disciples ONLY to the house of Israel. They are to take His gospel to the Jews only. Is this His true command? Certainly. But He seems to revise this command later in Matthew 28 when He gives out the great comission, doesn't He? There, His disciples are told to go into all the world. This "change" is substantiated by the scriptures themselves. Many of the other teachings of Christ are much more ambiguous. Are Christians on shakey ground when they claim to believe in Jesus Christ but either limit or dismiss some of His teachings? I am not questioning Christ's person at this point. But I am curious to what extent I can call myself a Christian if I disregard the clear teachings of the one I claim to follow. seeking4truth |
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4 | Christ and Christians? | Luke 14:26 | Aixen7z4 | 101438 | ||
You are right. I am a seeker too. Let us share what we have found. Perhaps we need to take this in little bits, one bit at a time. Dispensationalism is one thing, and as far as I am concerned we can take it or leave it. In fact the idea as such is not taught directly. But isn't it clear that Repentance is for all of us? Isn't it clear that going to Macedonia is not for us? I hold my breath and hope that no one will make an issue of it here. There are principles that apply of course, but the Lord does not expect us to go to Macedonia. That was for Paul. However, repentance is for all of us, for (Acts 17:30) the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. Fetching things from Troas is not for me although Paul says (2Timothy 4:13) "The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments". But faith is for me for (John 3:16) "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". In similar fashion I determine that being a witness is for me, but going to Samaria is not for me. Being ready to give an answer is for me. But speaking in other tongues is not for me. Matthew 11:28 is for me. But Mark 16:17,17 is not for me. I can learn from it, but it is not a command for me to obey. Are you with me? |
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5 | Christ and Christians? | Luke 14:26 | seeking4truth | 101452 | ||
Aixen, Yes, I am with you. While I would agree that all scripture is breath-out by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, I would not use every verse the same way in the same manner. For example, the teaching in the OT which says that animal sacrifices should be done, while being a true teaching in and of itself, actually pointed to the "truer" truth that Jesus Christ is the once-for-all-sacrifice. If I was to use passages in Leviticus (as a "Bible-believing Christian") to prove to others that animal sacrifice is commanded by God and by the Bible, I would not be accurately handling the word of truth, would I? The truth of animal sacrifices in the OT is made plain in the sacrifice of the Lamb of God in the NT. I think that the writer of Hebrews calls the OT a "shadow" of the reality in Christ. Perhaps we should start a new thread to continue this conversation? I don't know all the "netiquette" rules here on the forum. But, yes, I think I am following you. seeking4truth |
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6 | Christ and Christians? | Luke 14:26 | Aixen7z4 | 101470 | ||
A new thread is a good idea. What I suggest is that we discuss one topic or one passage at a time. Micah 6:8 might be a good verse for us to discuss: What does the Lord require of us? I also thought we might discuss Jesus' evaluation of one of the churches in Asia, from his messages to them in Revelation 2 and 3. To do that I will go back to the beginning of this program and enter the verse to see what has been done on it in the past. You might do the same with one of your key verses. If you get there before I do, I will see you there. You bring a lot to this forum, Seeker. Your knowledge of the word is apparent. As for etiquette, your patience, courtesy and responsiveness are like what most people around here have exhibited. I think you will fit in well. But you bring an emphasis on the practical that challenges us, and we have needed that. I hope you will be around for a long time. |
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