Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Reformer Joe | 39177 | ||
Emmaus: You wrote: 'This is circular logic. If the traditions are all "inscripturated" then the only tradition is the bible and the bible is the only tradition.' No, it is not circular. What the Reformation view of sola Scriptura holds is that the traditions of the early church (and by early I mean until the Middle Ages) are consistent with the traditions of the apostles that were subsequently written down in the Bible. As an example, look at Nicaea or Chalcedon and look at Trent. Protestants and Catholics agree on the first two. Why? Because it is clear from them that the bishops involved were seeking to INTERPRET Scripture correctly. to come together as an ecclesiastical body and rightly discern what the Scriptures (and vis-a-vis the apostles) teach on important theological matters. I stand right beside you in defending the Nicene Creed against groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses who insist that the council simply made it up. However, when we look at later edicts, such as those which pronounced that the pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra (a notion that arose in the 12th century as a debate between Fransiscans and other orders), the immaculate conception of Mary (19th century), and the assumption of Mary (20th century), we see absolutely no mention whatsoever in Scripture of these doctrines, nor can we find a shred of evidence that they were held by anyone in the first several centuries of the church. So where did they come from? From the "infallible" church, which is not nearly as monolithic in its theology as you want to assert. You seem to hold that heresy and schism and sectarianism began with Luther. Read your New Testament and you will see that false teaching has always been with us, held by large numbers of cults and sects. In your own church, we had the split of the Eastern and Western Church in the 11th century, which exists today as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Lest we forget the Great Schism also, there were several decades when the church itself had two, then THREE competing popes, all with their own followers and supporters, claiming that they held the chair of Peter. So it is somewhat of a red herring to say that because people distorted (and continue to distort) the very biblical notion of sola Scriptura that the doctrine itself is wrong. And notice that Luther viewed these groups that rejected the apostolic tradition in favor of personal authority with just as much disdain as he viewed the Roman church with their elevation of human tradition above that of the apostles as seen in Scripture. Lastly, you have not commented yet on Romans 4 in view of sola fide, so I will just say that reapeating your assertion over and over again that it is unbiblical does not make it so. --Joe! P.S. No altar in my church. Christ already made the last sacrifice of atonement. |
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2 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Emmaus | 39263 | ||
2 of 2 parts Joe, As for the Marian doctrines so many reject, Luther, Calvin and Zwingli had somewhat different opinions. Mary as the New Eve, mother of all the living in Christ: "Mary is the mother of Jesus and the mother of us all. If Christ is ours , we must be where he is; and all that he has must be ours, and his mother is therefore ours also." Luther "We are the children of Mary" Luther "The knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith." Irenaus (189 A.D.) Against Heresies. Immaculately Conceived "But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, is piosly and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to recive the holy soul thus infused. And thus in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin.." Luther "Christ was born of a most undefiled virgin." "It was fitting that such a holy son have a holy mother." Zwingli Ever Virgin Mother of God "It is an article of faith that Mary is mother of the Lord and still a virgin." Luther "The Council (Ephesus) has not offered anything new to faith but has strengthened the old faith against the arrogance of Nestorius. This article of faith-that Mary is the Mother of God- is present in the Church and is not a new creation of the Council but the presentation of the Gospel and scriptures." "In this work wherby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given that no on can grasp them." Luther "Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin, who here followed the traditional catholic interpretation to mean cousins or relatives. "Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God." " It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." Calvin "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli Assumption "There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know." Luther "Mary's sacrosanct body was borne by angels to heaven." Heinrich Bullinger ( Cranmmer's brother in law and successor to Zwingli) "The course of this life having been completed by Blessed mary,when now she would be called from the world, all that apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard she was about to be taked from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and taking her soul gave to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, however, the apotles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold again the Lord stood by them and the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud to paradise: where now joined with her soul, (Mary), rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones, and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end." St Gregory of tours in his Eight Books of miracles (circa 580 A.D.) This was obviously an ancient tradition even then. Where was the outrage at such a novel doctrine from a saint. And not exactly new to the 20th century. Joe, you are well read enough to know that Dogmatic definitions are always codifications of ancient beliefs and doctrines, even if they are ones you do not accept. 20th century? You are better informed than that. Emmaus |
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3 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Morant61 | 39271 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! Good morning my friend! Could you provide the full references for these quotes? It is very hard to check a quote cited only by the author's name! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Emmaus | 39305 | ||
Tim, I will provide them. It will take awhile to type up. That was the only reason I left them out. Did you know Luther was buried in a tomb with a scuplture of the coronation of Mary in Heaven by the Holy Trinity? After I provide the citations I must take a break. Besides, I have promised to let Joe have the last word. I will however try to provide you a list of some books on Mary by contempoary Protetsant authors whose opinions you may not find so suspect as Catholic writers. But do read the early Fathers and even the Reformers I have cited and see what the true position of the Historic Christian Faith is on Mary. And when you read the Fathers, even the Ante Nicean Fathers(before Constantine and the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.) ask yourself what Church and which Church's form of worship and organizational structure are they describing. Cast your net out into the deep and see what you find. Emmaus |
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5 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Morant61 | 39340 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! Thanks my friend! I really wasn't trying to prolong the thread! I was just curious about looking up some of the quotes! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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