Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | EdB | 38932 | ||
Emmaus I pondered this all day. If you are giving me this passage to show works accompany faith, your preaching to the choir (I agree). I think I even understand the faith part of penitence I just don't understand the what appears to be the works parts. To me it appears that by being told to say the rosary 10 times for lying and 50 times for committing fornication that there has been a value judgement made. Fornication is worst than lying, then the penitence must be worst. Yet your saying penitence in not punishment but rather a reinforcement of grace through faith. However the fact that one carries a more demanding reinforcement seems to void that claim. Penitence then more correctly appears to be punishment in an effort to provide a sort of recompense for the sin. EdB |
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2 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Emmaus | 38964 | ||
Ed, I thought the scripture passage was a good illustration of the thought that penance is a form of thanksgiving for God's mercy and forgiveness. I was hoping you would see that. That was it, nothing more. I am amazed at how those who may have never expierienced the Sacrament of Confession focus on what seems the smallest part to me. Not all penances are Hail Marys. And Catholics are much less obsessed with Hail Marys than many non Catholics seem to be. Many non Catholics react to Hail Marys like kids do like to those mysterious cooties. It is like we are speaking a different language or seeing through different cultural lenses. Here is a real penance I was given to do. "Take your wife out to dinner." Not a Hail Mary in the whole meal. And not exactly heavy labor works. Imagine that. As for the work. The work is God's. It is his grace and mercy. It seems hard for many non Catholics to believe a Catholic is trying to make that point. So many seem to think we are all obsessed with works and Hail Marys. It just ain't so. Emmaus |
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3 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | EdB | 38976 | ||
Emmaus I was not reacting to what you say at penance nor was I asking about what you said but rather I was asking about the reason. Again I understand fully that it is not overwhelming task. Isn't it true that a lesser sin carries a lesser penance and a more severe sin the greater the penance? Doesn’t that fact alone give some indication that penance is a form of retribution for the sin? No matter how I try to reason it out it keeps coming back to paying a price for sin. EdB |
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4 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Emmaus | 39136 | ||
Ed, I have never had a penance that I thought was severe in any way and that is not because all my sins were small. I have never met any other Catholic who ever mentioned a severe penance either. Penance is not retribution, nor is it paying a price. Let me try one more illustration. I am a man who loves "La dolce vita". I eat, I drink, I lay in the sun, I smoke cubanos. I ignore all advice that this is bad for my health. I have a heart attack. This is a wake up call. I become convinced of the wickedness of my ways. I seek help. I go to this man I am told is the best heart surgeon in the whole world. He does all his work pro bono. I confess my wicked ways and ask him to save my life because no one else can. He does surgery, gives me a valve job and quadruple bypasses, the works, no charge. Now that I am feeling better I go to my follow up visit feeling very gratefull. He says: "Emmaus, you could have lost it all, but I have fixed you up good or better than new. But take my advice. Give up the liquor, the cigars, and the rich food. Start walking for exercise and I want you to read from this book on healthy living a little bit everyday. In fact it would be a good idea if maybe your repeated some passages daily in in order to stay focussed and healthy. And come see me often so we can stay in touch too." I say, "I love you Doc. Anything you say." And I do my best to do what he has asked. Is that punishment, retribution or paying for the life saving medical miracle that the doctor's work has done? Emmaus |
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5 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | EdB | 39178 | ||
Emmaus I guess we are not on the same wave length, I can not relate following a doctors orders as being the same as repetitively saying something over and over at the instructions of a priest after having had confessed to him a sin. I understand both are trying to heal you. I understand both are trying to keep you alive. Now if the priest had you read a passage in the Bible relative to your sin then I could see the similarity. However, to have you say the same thing 20 times over and over is to me the same as writing on the blackboard, “I will not chew gum” 20 times and that my friend is punishment according to my fifth grade teacher. It still appears to be works in retribution or a form of payment for the sin confessed. EdB |
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6 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Emmaus | 39264 | ||
Ed, I won't try anymore. You are stuck on something, (repitition of a particular paryer)that is not even an intregal part of the sacrament, to the exclusion of the major element, God's grace. I would say you can't see the forest for the tree. I have done my best and will let this subject rest. Emmaus |
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7 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | EdB | 39325 | ||
Emmaus I guess this is why there is chocolate and vanilla ice cream. I see pentance as nothing more than a form of punishment. You see it as works glorifing grace??? To me that is impossible! To you it is very possible. I'll stick with my chocolate and you can have vanilla and don't try to tell me you have chocolate too!!! :-) EdB |
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8 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Emmaus | 60996 | ||
Ed, I know this thread heading is ancient and we were actually talking about penance in sacramental confession, but I was reading a bible study on James today that made me think back to our convrsation for some reason. It does not address directly what we were discussing. I am not necessarily trying to reopen the thread. I just feel moved by the Spirit to share it with you since you came to mind. I tried to send just the link but it is a back page off the home page of a site and had too many symbols illegal in the forum's program. "James "Pleasure, Piety and Penance" 4:1-10 Study 7 Introduction In the last lesson we discovered that the fruit of false wisdom was disorder brought on by selfish ambition and jealousy. In this lesson, James sets before us an important question – is our goal in life to submit to God’s will or to spend our life fulfilling our own desires? James warns us that, if pleasure is the principle we choose to live by, there will be divisions and quarreling among us. James first identifies unfulfilled desires as the source of worldly antagonism, then draws a correlation between desires and behavior when he states, “You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war.” The term “desires” or “pleasures” is the Greek word hedonon from which the English word “hedonism” comes. Hedonism is that philosophy which views pleasure as the chief goal in life. James tells his readers that this passion resides in their hearts, waging a war to fulfill desire (4:1-3). He then strongly rebukes the reader for their spiritual unfaithfulness. Rather than yielding to worldly desires, James urges the reader to yield to the desire of the Spirit, which dwells in them (4:4-6). The process of yielding to the Spirit takes place by submitting to God and resisting the devil, accompanied by thorough repentance and cleansing of ones heart (4:7-10)." Catholic Scripture Study www.e3mil.com Emmaus |
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9 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | EdB | 61025 | ||
Emmaus I must have missed something. I understood and agreed with the lesson in James. What I don't understand is how repeating going through the Rosary twice and repeating 5 hail Mary's at the instructions of a Priest is any different than when I was in school and had to write 100 times "I will not talk while Mrs. Johnson is talking. To me it is punishment by works. EdB |
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10 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | Emmaus | 61028 | ||
Ed, I am not so sure that penance undertaken willing is a "work" in the sense that you mean. Perhaps it all fits into the conversation I just had with John Reformed about the difference between "works of the law" and "works in Christ." Anyway, enough said. We have covered this ground already. You just came to mind when I read it. Emmaus |
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11 | purgatory is it true? | Matt 22:32 | EdB | 61037 | ||
Emmaus Thanks for thinking about me and anytime you come across anything that you think would help me understand penance please share it with me. Your Brother EdB |
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