Results 1 - 15 of 15
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 90058 | ||
Dear John As you rightly stated "Scripture never contradicts itself. Therefore, the fault lies with the interpreter and the pre-suppositional lens through which he examines God's inerrant Word." And since Scripture states For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) and John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Therefore; "once saved, always saved" as is presented and taught by many in our day, necessarily must be a theological invention of certain men, no matter how loudly they may protest otherwise. In His service New Creature |
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2 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | Mickodemus | 90100 | ||
I'm sorry N.C but the scriptures you have presented do not say that a person was born-again or filled with the Spirit. The Hebrew passage you stated says that some people have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit and partook of it but never actually received the Holy Spirit within them.(born-again) A good example of this is Judas Iscariot. When Jesus sent them out two by two, they all did miracles and many wonders, even Judas because he was a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" but never really was born-again. The Spirit worked through Judas but never set up camp there. :) There are many examples of the Spirit moving in people but never having the adoption of God within. John 15:6 is talking about the ungodly or as Psalm 1 puts it the chaff which the wind driveth away. Once you are in the hands/adopted by God, no one can pluck you out, not even yourself.(John 10:28) How can a Father who has a child say that he never was a father. Once you are a child of God, you can't say, "No, I dont want you as my father." He has the adoption papers in hand and its on record in the courthouse. ;) Sola Scriptura Mike |
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3 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 90136 | ||
Mike the letter to the Hebrews, is written to Jewish Christian’s. They are converts from Judiaism to Christianity, and are warned about returning to Judiaism. In Hebrews, the writer refers to his readers as brethren. Heb. 3:1,12; 10:19; 13:22, because the writer acknowledages them as Christian brothers. Below I have added commentary on Heb. 6:4-6 from the man many have called the Prince of Preachers, Charles Spurgeon "Those mentioned (in Heb. 6:4-6) are true and real Christian's" "a child reading this passage, would say, that the persons intended by it must be Christians. If the Holy Spirit intended to describe Christians, I do not see that he could have used more explicit terms than there are here." "How can a man be said to be enlightened, and to taste of the heavenly gift, and to be made partaker of the Holy Ghost, without being a child of God?" "I think that I shall be able to show that none but true believers are here described." "First, they are spoken of as having been once enlightened, This refers to the enlightening influence of God's Spirit .... I cannot consider a man truly enlightened unless he is a child of God." "the next thing that God grants to us is a taste of the heavenly gift, by which we understand, the heavenly gift of salvation." "we cannot think that the Holy Spirit would describe an unregenerate man as having been enlightened, and as having tasted of the heavenly gift, No, my brethren, If I have tasted of the heavenly gift, I am one of his." "no man can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and yet be unregenerate." "further..... they have tasted the good word of God .... I say again, if these people be not believers-who are?" "They had received the powers of the world to come.... powers with which the Holy Ghost endows a Christian." "These, we say, whatever may be the meaning of the text, must have been, beyond a doubt, none other than true and real Christians" ---------------------------------------- Below is a commentary on John 15:6 from Adam Clarke "Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to Him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire, because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of His God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united; it is absurd, and contrary to the letter and spirit of the metaphor, to talk of being "seemingly" in Christ - because this means nothing. If there was only a seeming union there could be only a seeming excision. So the matter is just where it began; nothing is done on either side, and nothing said to any purpose. He is cast forth. Observe that person who abides not in Christ in a believing, loving, obedient spirit, (1) is cut off from Jesus, having no longer any right or title to Him or to His salvation. (2) He is withered - deprived of all the influences of God's grace and Spirit. (3) He is gathered - becomes (through the judgment of God) again united with backsliders like himself and other workers of iniquity. And being abandoned to his own heart and Satan, he (4) is cast into the fire - separated from God's people, from God himself, and from the glory of His power. And (5) he is burned - is eternally tormented with the devil and his angels, and with all those who have lived and died in their iniquity. In His service New Creature |
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4 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | JibbyJee | 90140 | ||
NC I think it's funny that you, of all people, are quoting Spurgeon. Not only because he's a Calvinist, but also because you chide everyone who quotes outside the Bible in support of beliefs. Moreover, your quotes of Spurgeon are grossly out of context. If you want to know what he was really saying, go to: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0075.htm and understand that his sermon was entirely a SUPPOSITION on the issue of losing salvation, in order to make his point that CHRISTIANS CANNOT LOSE THEIR SALVATION. Read the last half of the sermon very carefully. In Christ, JIBBS |
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5 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | New Creature | 90164 | ||
JIBBS It truly is funny that I of all people would be quoting Spurgeon, especially since he was a Calvinist. However to assume that I misquoted him or took him out of context is not actually true. Due to the limited amount of space allowed to reply with I was not able to enter the whole sermon. I have however read that sermon carefully in it's entirety. And one thing I have learned about Spurgeon from reading much of his material and sermons is that he very often contradicted his own statements. In this case however I quoted Spurgeon when I agreed with him. It is no different if I quote MacArthur, Pink, David Jeremiah, etc. etc. I don't disagree with evrything these men had said. But at the same time I don't agree with everything they have said. I used quotes from these individuals when I believe they agree with the clear teaching of what the Bible clearly states. In His service New Creature |
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6 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | JibbyJee | 90276 | ||
NC If you understood the sermon by Spurgeon on Hebrews 6:4-6, you would realize there are no contradictions at all. Certainly there is a prolific use of metaphor and most of the text is tongue-in-cheek, but nowhere are there any contradictions revealed by what Spurgeon was saying. I suppose if you don't understand what his point is that you could assert there are contradictions but that would make your position a moot point. Here's an example of your usage of quotes, taken out of context, in order to spin according to your own theological slant: Hypothetical quote: "Some would argue, although the position has been proven to be heresy, that Christians can lose lose their salvation according to Hebrews 6:4-6. Thankfully, though, the context of these verses affirms the docrine of the assurance of salvation, especially in relation to verse 9." Now, imagine the above quote was by Spurgeon in the article you quoted. Here is what your quote would be to "defend" your position: "I think we can lose our salvation and to disagree with me shows you don't know anything about the Bible. Even Spurgeon taught you could lose your salvation. Here's proof: 'Christians can lose lose their salvation according to Hebrews 6:4-6.' You see? He said it and I agree with him on this point." That, Old Creature, is EXACTLY what you did to Spurgeons sermon in light of the entire context of it. I suggest you take off the theological glasses before you read any sermons or the Bible. For some reason, you are getting selective 'hearing' and selective 'seeing' and ignoring everything you disagree with. I think it's called "itching ears"? In Christ, JIBBS |
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7 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 90281 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! In light of all the fuss about NC's quotes from Spurgeon, I went back and re-read his post several times, and I went and read Spurgeon's sermon. I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. The only claim that New Creature made in his original post was that Hebrews was written to Christians. He then quoted several places from Spurgeon where Spurgeon affirmed that Hebrews was in fact written to Christians. I never saw anyplace where New Creature claimed that Spurgeon thought that Christians could lose their salvation. But, Spurgeon did think that Heb. 6 was written to Christians. His 'out' was that it was a warning about something which could not actually happen. So I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. The quotes NC used were contextual in that Spurgeon did believe that Heb. 6 was talking about Christians. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | JibbyJee | 90282 | ||
Dear Tim: I'm responding to the implication that NC made by twisting the words of Spurgeon in order to spin a web of deceit by saying he 'agrees' with what Spurgeon said about Christians being able to lose salvation. To 'agree' with something Spurgeon never meant is the height of deception and hypocrisy! My argument is not whether or not Hebrews was written to Christians, but rather WHAT Spurgeon's message was. And since when has rightly dividing the word of God been an "out"? ;) In Christ, JIBBS |
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9 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 90284 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! The only problem is that nothing was said about Spurgeon believing that one could lose their salvation. Here is the opening of the post in question: ********************************** Mike the letter to the Hebrews, is written to Jewish Christian’s. They are converts from Judiaism to Christianity, and are warned about returning to Judiaism. In Hebrews, the writer refers to his readers as brethren. Heb. 3:1,12; 10:19; 13:22, because the writer acknowledages them as Christian brothers. Below I have added commentary on Heb. 6:4-6 from the man many have called the Prince of Preachers, Charles Spurgeon *********************************** NC then lists several quotes from Spuregon, where Spuregon makes the case that Hebrews 6 was written about Christians. That was the part that NC said he agreed with. So, I don't see the problem. He never made the claim that Spurgeon thought that believers could lose their salvation. So, where exactly did NC 'twist' Spurgeon's words? Didn't Spurgeon believe that Hebrews 6 was written about Christians? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | JibbyJee | 90297 | ||
Dear Tim I think you are missing the point. Perhaps going back to the beginning of the thread will enlighten you as to the very subject being ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. NC has asserted that you CAN lose your salvation and has deferred to Spurgeon's sermon on Hebrews 6:4-6 to help support his view, albeit only by selectively picking what parts he 'agrees' with. The problem I have is that you can't 'agree' with something someone never meant to begin with. NC is viewing this entire thread through the construct that the Bible supposedly teaches we can lose our salvation. I believe that to be a heretical teaching. But that, for now, is beside the point. In Christ, JIBBS |
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11 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 90356 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! Sorry it took me awhile to respond, I had a softball game tonight! :-) We lost! :-) I'm not missing the point though. NC believes one thing, while Spurgeon believed another. However, they were both in agreement that Heb. 6 was addressed to Christians. That was the only claim that NC made about Spurgeon. Now, if he had went on and claimed that Spurgeon also believed that Christians could 'lose' their salvation, he would have been twisting Spurgeon's words. But, he never once made that claim in any of his post. In fact, in one earlier post, he specifically states that Spurgeon did not believe that salvation could be lost. I don't agree with all of John MacArthur's positions. Does that mean I can never quote him for things with which we do agree? I think you were missing the point my friend. NC did not agree with Spurgeon that Christians could lose their salvation. He agreed with Spurgeon that Christians were being addressed in Hebrews 6. I just don't want to see someone unfairly accused of something they never did. If you feel the accustation is justified, please produce the quote from NC where he says that Spurgeon believed a Christian could lose his salvation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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12 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | JibbyJee | 90358 | ||
Dear Tim: Your point is well taken. I understand where you're coming from and how you are seeing the discussion. So for the confusion, I apologize. I'm realize NC never came out and said Spurgeon taught that salvation could be lost. That's not the issue. The issue to me is the fact that NC quoted from Spurgeon's sermon on the very issue of eternal security, while in defense of a position AGAINST the doctrine. I think it could only create confusion for people who are less familiar with Spurgeon to see someone quoting his comments on Heb. 6:4-6 to make it appear like Spurgeon himself believed you could lose your salvation. The insinuation is subtle and perhaps even accidental, but it's still there and in my opinion needed to be addressed. Hopefully, we can all just move on and forget about it. I doubt its worth all the stink it's creating. In Christ, JIBBS |
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13 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 90365 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! As I just mentioned to Hank, I do think New Creature should have cited a reference for the quotes, or perhaps a link, so that other could read the entire sermon. But, I don't think that one has to agree with all three of Spurgeon's quotes to agree with his first point. Like Spurgeon, I too believe that Christians are being discussed in Heb. 6:4-6, but I differ with where he goes from that point. Spurgeon's first point dealt entirely with the question of the identify of those in this passage. So, I think it is legitimate to quote that first point in discussing the identity of those in the passage. It would definitely be wrong to go beyond that though! :-) Well, good night my friend! I have to rest my weary bones after an entire game played at short stop! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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14 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 90367 | ||
Tim: "...after an entire game played at short stop!" But who won? Are you just being modest, or ... ? --Hank | ||||||
15 | What are your views of once saved always | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 90368 | ||
Hank! Regretably, we lost! :-) The game was close for awhile, but it ended up 22 to 7. I don't normally play short stop, it is to scary a position for my taste. But, I did okay. Nothing got by me, I made a few outs, but I missed a few opportunities as well with poor throws! :-( If I recall correctly, our team has only won one game thus far, but it is a lot of fun! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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