Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | Bill Mc | 17912 | ||
Joe, out of curiosity, upon what basis do you make the statement that only the civil and ceremonial laws are passed away? Paul's writings and the author of Hebrews do not divide the Law into 1) moral law 2) civil law 3) ceremonial law when speaking of the Law being made obsolete or concerning the fact that believers are not under Law. They simply state 'the Law','the letter', the ministry of death, the ministry of condemnation, 'the Law of Moses'. If they make no distinction, then why do you? What scriptures do you use to support this 'dismantling' of the Law? It appears that by breaking it up into smaller pieces, then you can be the one to decide which parts to keep and which parts to discard. James refers to 'the whole Law'. In other words, if you want to be under ANY of it, then you have to be under ALL of it. Any thoughts? In Christ, Bill Mc |
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2 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | Reformer Joe | 17915 | ||
Bill: Thoughts? Of course! You should know me better than that by now... :) "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." --Matthew 5:17-19 Whoever teaches the commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. What commandments is Christ speaking of? Have heaven and earth passed away yet? Then why do some try to annul God's moral commands? As far as dismantling the Law, I am supporting no such thing. God's moral requirements both are encapsulated in the decalogue, but also pre-date the law as well. His moral requirements for humanity extend back as far as the garden, long before Moses came down from Sinai. Paul even mentions this in Galatians: "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made." --Galatians 3:17 The covenant made with Abraham was pre-Law (in the Mosaic sense). It was not a covenant of works, but rather a covenant demonstrating God's grace. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. If God's moral requirements only exist in the form of the Mosaic Law, we not only have the question of those who pre-date the Law, but also those who lived afterward but were not under the Law of Moses (i.e. the Gentiles). Paul speaks to them in Romans: "For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them" --Romans 2:11-14 We can glean several truths from these few verses: 1. Gentiles do not have the Law (of Moses) 2. They do instinctively the things of the Law (Does this mean sacrifices? I doubt it) 3. They have the Law (or law) written on their hearts. Again, is this the system of sacrifices or feasts? It seems that when Paul talks about the Law, he is referring to different aspects of the Law depending on different circumstances. 4. All who have sinned without the Law will perish without the Law. Therefore, only the Jews were "under the Law" in the first place, in the Mosaic sense. However, we are all accountable to the moral law of God, which is seen and expressed clearly in the Law of Moses, but also is eternal. We see God expressing his covenant of works with humanity in Genesis 2:16-17, based on His perfect standard of morality. Our first parents were not under the Mosaic covenant, nor the covenant of Abraham, but still obligated to follow the moral directives of God. Why do you contend that when Christ died and rose again that the moral requirements of God, which did not begin at Sinai, ended at Calvary? Again, I am not arguing that any of us are able to keep the requirements of God's moral law. That is why God established his covenant of grace with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:15) and later more specifically with Abraham though which all the peoples of the earth would be blessed. God's covenant of grace was fulfilled at Calvary, and all who trust in Christ are part of that covenant. However, all humanity, as descendants of Adam, are part of the covenant of works established by God, which has never been nullified. The reason I am saved is that I am in Christ, who fulfilled the covenant of works for me and all who believe. One other question that would help clear things up on your perspective for me, Bill: what can I do as a Christian to honor God in my daily life that is not expressed in the Law? If the moral law passed away with the Mosaic Law, how am I to please God without obeying the moral commands found in the Pentateuch? --Joe! |
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3 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | Bill Mc | 17927 | ||
Joe, here's my thoughts: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Joe, you said it yourself, Christ did fulfill it. He could not allow it to pass away UNTIL He fulfilled it. The key phrase here is not 'until heaven and earth pass away,' the key phrase is 'until all (of the Law) is accomplished.' And Christ did that. 'Then why do some try to annul God's moral commands?' I do not try to annul God's moral commands. They do serve a purpose. They show sinners God's righteous standard and how far they fall short of it. But as a Christian, you are not under the Law, you are under grace and the law of Christ. As far as dismantling the Law, I am supporting no such thing. God's moral requirements both are encapsulated in the decalogue, but also pre-date the law as well. His moral requirements for humanity extend back as far as the garden, long before Moses came down from Sinai. Paul even mentions this in Galatians: 'If God's moral requirements only exist in the form of the Mosaic Law, we not only have the question of those who pre-date the Law, but also those who lived afterward but were not under the Law of Moses (i.e. the Gentiles).' True, God's moral requirements existed before the Mosaic Law. Why? Because they are a reflection of who He is. 'Therefore, only the Jews were "under the Law" in the first place, in the Mosaic sense.' True, so if you are a Gentile, what are you doing under the Mosaic Law? 'However, we are all accountable to the moral law of God, which is seen and expressed clearly in the Law of Moses, but also is eternal.' True, and none of us can keep it perfectly. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory - Rom 3:23. 'Why do you contend that when Christ died and rose again that the moral requirements of God, which did not begin at Sinai, ended at Calvary?' I didn't. I said that we are under the law of Christ which surpasses the Mosaic law by miles. Christ fulfilled the complete moral requirements of God at Calvary. And He will continue to fulfill the law of the Spirit of life in us as we abide in Him. But this is not to acheive righteousness or sanctification. We have already been made righteous and sanctified in our spirits. We obey God's moral laws not to achieve or attain a status, but because we have already, in Christ, attained. Will Christ in you, the hope of glory, break God's moral law? I don't think so. But if you do, if you sin as a Christian, does that invalidate what Christ in you has done? I don't think so. Grace is what leads us to say no to ungodliness and live holy lives. Christ in us. 'God's covenant of grace was fulfilled at Calvary,' Not true, Joe. The New Covenant of grace was established at Calvary. New covenants were established by the shedding of blood. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant (the Law) at Calvary. 'However, all humanity, as descendants of Adam, are part of the covenant of works established by God, which has never been nullified.' I don't believe so. 'The reason I am saved is that I am in Christ, who fulfilled the covenant of works for me and all who believe.' True. He did then He took it away. No one is saved by works, ever. 'One other question that would help clear things up on your perspective for me, Bill: what can I do as a Christian to honor God in my daily life that is not expressed in the Law? If the moral law passed away with the Mosaic Law, how am I to please God without obeying the moral commands found in the Pentateuch?' Faith in what Christ has done. Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Faith, not in yourself and how well you keep God's moral law, but faith in Christ and the fact that He will, day by day, moment by moment, fulfill God's righteous requirements in you. In fact, anything that is not of faith, including human effort to keep the Law, is sin. That is why the Pharisees were condemned. If you could live every day keeping every moral law of God, then you would, indeed, be justified. But neither you nor I nor anyone else (except Christ) can do this. So what do we do? Just keep trying? No. Rest in Christ and know that because He did it once, He will continue to do it through you. Faith in Christ alone is what pleases God. Anything else is works. Gal 3:24,25 - 'Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (the Law).' It's pretty clear, Joe. Grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord, Bill Mc |
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4 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | Reformer Joe | 17965 | ||
Bill: You wrote: "The key phrase here is not 'until heaven and earth pass away,' the key phrase is 'until all (of the Law) is accomplished.' And Christ did that." Please explain why Christ included the phrase. What does it mean, "until heaven and earth pass away" in the context of what he is saying? You also wrote: "True, God's moral requirements existed before the Mosaic Law. Why? Because they are a reflection of who He is." I wouldn't say that is WHY they exist, even though what you say is true. My question remains: if they did indeed exist apart from the covenant with Israel, why do you insist that those requirements no longer have any meaning for us (like the ceremonial and sacrificial Law of Moses)? It is precisely because the moral law of God existed prior to and beyong the Law of Moses that I hold that God never intended for us to toss out the moral commandments. I also noticed that you didn't comment on Abraham. I would be interested on your thoughts on what I wrote. You wrote: "Faith in Christ alone is what pleases God. Anything else is works." That does not hold up in the New Testament. Our faith enables us to please God. Our faith in Christ is the instrument of our justification. So now that I am a believer, works do not matter at all? I think there are about a dozen epistles that would challenge that view. If all that is required is a "works-less" faith, why does Paul criticize the licentiousness of the Corinthians? What do you make of James 2? God wants faith, but a true, saving faith produces works which are pleasing to God. They are also the mark of a true believer, and Paul tells us to expel those false brethren whose works do not demonstrate a saving faith. How is your faith demonstrated, Bill? Apart from works? Is that a saving faith or a dead one? If it is demonstrated in works, what works are those? The ones that reflect the moral commandments of God? Or something else? --Joe! |
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5 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | Bill Mc | 17984 | ||
Joe, my faith is demonstrated by Christ performing God's works through me. Do they reflect the moral commandments of God? More than that. His works through me reflect the true nature of God upon which His moral commands are based. The Mosaic Law would tell me to not steal. The law of Christ tells me to go beyond that and give to those in need. The life of Christ in me tells me what to give, when to give it, where to give it, and who to give it to. The Mosiac Law would tell me not to commit adultery. The law of Christ tells me to love my wife as Christ loves His church. The life of Christ in me shows me how to do that by leading me. These are two examples of how the life of Christ fulfulls the law of Christ and makes the Mosaic Law pale by comparison. Joe, no offense, brother, but if you would like to discuss this further, then click on my name and email me. I would be happy to discuss it with you one-on-one through email but I am not going to argue via this forum. I hope you understand. In Christ, Bill Mc |
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6 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | Reformer Joe | 17995 | ||
Bill: This is a Bible study forum, and we are discussing the Bible. Why are you wanting to take this privately? I have asked you two questions, both based on James 2. The first one had to do with Abraham's faith being demonstrated through his works. The second one has to do with this verse: "But someone may well say, 'You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.'" --James 2:18 Notice that James does not say "Christ performing God's works through me." He says MY works. Paul says the same thing in Philippians 2: "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." --Philippians 2:12-13 Yes, God is working in me, conforming me to the image of Christ, but in a very real sense I am "working out my salvation" (not working FOR it, mind you). If it is simply a matter of "letting Christ woirk through us," why does Paul give us such specific commands? "Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear." --Ephesians 4:25-29 "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another." --Galatians 5:13 "But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness... For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." --1 Timothy 4:7,10 "Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity." --Colossians 4:5 "Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart." --2 Timothy 2:22 Nowhere do we find that it is "Christ doing these things through us." Striving, pursuit, work, labor, service, discipline are all the things which the believer engages in. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling us that we are given the power to please God (Romans 8:7-9), but it is most definitely we who are active in the deeds of righteousness, thanks to God's sanctifying work in our hearts and our wills. Christ already knows the specifics on how to please the Father. If it were as simple as "letting Christ work through us," we would not need the COMMANDMENTS we find all throughout the epistles. And, personally, I find the idea abhorrent that we as human beings "let" the sovereign Lord of the universe do anything. Who is in charge here, anyway? --Joe! |
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7 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | Bill Mc | 17996 | ||
Joe, Ok. And don't forget to respond to this note so that you're sure to have the last word. | ||||||
8 | Joe, what is Paul and Hebrews 'the Law'? | Heb 6:4 | charis | 17999 | ||
Dear Bill, Joe, and Forum, Sorry to be a 'buttinsky,' but... I agree with Joe that we are exhorted to 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling.' But this cannot be accomplished by mere human study and (attempted) application. I also see Bill's point about 'allowing' the Holy Spirit to have His way in our lives. The danger there is to also 'allow' our emotions to masquerade as the Holy Spirit, which is all too common. (Frankly, I, too, have seen the abuse of 'letting' God have His way!) Friends, I am not trying to 'referee' your thread, but simply saying that both of you seem to be on a Biblical track, as long as the letter AND intent of the Word, coupled with prudence and common sense, reign over your belief. Maybe (just maybe) this is the last word. :-) In Christ Jesus, charis |
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