Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | Ray | 13887 | ||
Hi Kindness, Welcome to the forum. I wish you had given your Scripture references as you stated them to make them easier to compare. Some of the phrases I was not familiar with; like "old unbelieving house of Israel" and "Prince with God", and "true Israel". Perhaps you could list those references for us. I don't follow the sequence of your quoted Scriptures but they all sound good. As a person interested in capitalization let me look at what I see that you wrote. We read in the Scriptures of the true God but I couldn't find any true Israel. I wonder if you think of Israel more highly than you ought to think? I don't think of Israel as the True Vine. Even Jesus in John 15:l says that "I am the true vine." in lower case. Again, welcome to the forum as I think this is your first contribution. Later, Ray |
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2 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | KINDNESS | 13912 | ||
Thank you for yor responce. In Isa.5:1 Israel is refered to as God's vineyard but yeilding wild grapes. Jesus comes and redirects our attention from national Israel to Himself as the true vine, bearing good fruit. In the wilderness there was a tabernacle and later a temple. In John 1:14 the Word becomes flesh and tabernacles among us. In Matt. 21:43 says "Therefore I say to you,the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it." And in Matt. 23:37-39 where Jesus weeps over Jerusalem and says "See. Your house is left to you desolate,..." Gal. 3:16 says "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say "And to your seeds, as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. and in 2 Cor.1:20 says "For all the promises of God in Him are Yes and in Him Amen, to the glory of God." I'm sure you are familiar with all the evidence that Jesus is the long awaited Son of David, the focus of the whole Word of God. Jer.31:31 speaks of a New Covenant which Jesus ushered in at the Last Supper, Himself the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. I believe that world is made up of those who believe in Him as their personal Savior. The Peter reference is 1 Peter 2:4-10 where I believe it is clear that the nation of Israel is replaced by those in Christ. See also Rom.9:6-8 the seed of promise is again Christ and those in Him by faith. Eph. 3 is another place. Read the whole chapter. The name Israel was given first to Jacob in Gen.32:22-28 and means "Prince with God" or ruling w/ God. In Isa.9:6 we have the Messiah being called the Prince of Peace. Well Ray I hope this helps you understand better my perspective on Rom.11:1 Thanks for asking. I don't think of the nation of Israel which has always been a mixed multitude was ever the true vine. But Jesus refers to Himself as the true Vine in constrast to them because they thought of themselves as untouchable and above the Law w/o the fruit to go with their favored postion. What a warning to all of us who have a simular mindset. Let me know what you think. Kindness |
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3 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | Ray | 13993 | ||
Hi KINDNESS, I don't recognize the concept of your grid for Rom 11:l but I appreciate your Scripture references. Speaking again to what I "see" you saying in your capitalization, I see a little inconsistency as far as the vine is concerned. I see that you write that Israel is not the True Vine for now you also say that Israel was never the true vine. So I can't suggest now that you think too highly of Israel. Perhaps now I can suggest a balance that would put Jew and Gentile in the same position; one in which all people are capable of being grafted into the body of Christ. Each one doing his part and dependent on each other. You mention Christ as being the true vine in your first paragraph and as the true Vine in your last. One of the things that I strive for and want our translators to strive for is consistency. Another thing that I want people to see is the difference between this Man Jesus and ourselves as mere men. Scriptures over and over speak of these differences and the greatness of God. So usually I would be very open to making this pronoun "Vine" in contrast to us. In the case of John 15:1 I didn't think that the relationship between the Vine and the Vinedresser would be a correct one for the Triune God. You have caused be to consider that further. You write, "The name Israel was given first to Jacob in Gen 32:22-28 and means "Prince with God" or ruling w/God." In the NASB Study Bible the margin notes say there for "Israel"; I.e he who strives with God; or God strives." So I wonder about your "Prince with God". Looking at your Gal. 3:16 reference (and I notice you apparently like the NKJ as I also do) let me say in passing that I would add three capitalized pronouns to the NASB and recognize the two Seed words and also capitalize "but as of One". But also agreeing with Galatians 3:20 and James 2:19 and 1Peter l:17. Let me know what you think and also elaborate on the concept of a "grid". Later, Ray |
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4 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | KINDNESS | 14003 | ||
Hi Ray, Thanks for not pointing out my spelling errors. Yes I do like the KJV and the NKJV. I used the word grid maybe inappropriately. What I was getting at is If Jesus Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the Law and the promises were made ultimately to Him like in Ps. 2:7,8, then in my mind Israel (the Jews) have fulfilled their purpose in being the people through whom the Lord would bring forth the Messiah. So now the focus is on the Lord Jesus Christ as the One to whom all the OT promises whould be fulfilled. No one else is worthy. Rev.5:4-9. Only those who acknowledge Christ as the only worthy One and repent before Him become by faith God's chosen people wheather they are Jew or Gentile. So maybe there is no plan to restore the Jews as a nation etc. I have friends that are Jews and dearly love them but it saddens me to know they reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah. When I use a capital it is useally for emphises. I do believe True Vine is appropriate since it refers to the God/Man Jesus. In Zodhiates dictionary Israel is number 3478 and it says "he will rule as God" In the text it says "thy name shall be no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed". Anyway I believe when God changed Jacob's name he became a type of the Lord Jesus who when He came on the scene He didn't have 12 sons but chose 12 apostles and established a new kingdom in which is both Jew and Gentile Made one through faith in Christ. I need to get ready to attend a memorial service in the morning so must go for now. I have enjoyed the exchange about the scriptures. Hope we can continue later. Kindness God bless. |
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5 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | Ray | 14049 | ||
Hi KINDNESS, I hope that you had a good day today. I appreciate your thoughts yesterday. My focus is on the One so as far as the Nation Israel I would be the wrong one to talk to. However, John 4:20-22 would be an interesting passage to discuss. Again, as far as the vine is concerned. Scriptures talk of the true God, and the true bread, and the true vine. If I were to capitalize Vine I would leave the true in lower case. Thank you for your Zodhiates dictionary quote. If you go with that realize that the "he will rule as God" is lower case, for Jacob wrestled with and strived with God ending up in a tie and a life-long limp. Also see John 6:46. I have to go. Later, Ray |
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6 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | KINDNESS | 14217 | ||
Hi Ray, I don't quite understand what you mean when you say it was a tie between God and Jacob. I believe what happened at Peniel was Jacob was owning up to getting his father Isaac's blessing by trickery and realized if God didn't bless him he wasn't really blessed at all. So by saying his name was Jacob which means skeamer, surplanter,or some even say crook, Jacob had come to the place of honesty and desired only God's blessing which is the only one that counts and can only be gotten by humbling one's self. What do you mean by the wrestling match ended in a "tie"? It looks to me like God won because humbled himself before God. Jacob gave his heart to God and realized "in his flesh dwells no good thing", just like with Paul. John 4:20-23 is an interesting passage indeed. I love how Jesus gets to the point here, that true worship is not a matter of place but attitude and focus on the one true living God and Father of all who are born of God. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24. Is this the point you wanted to make? There was a time when that whole idea was unknown to me. I was a Roman Catholic and thought that "where" I worshiped was most important. But thank the Lord my Savior He showed me the truth and I am free. Ray are you an English teacher? I love Johm 6. Have you compared Jn.6:46 with Matt 11:27? And then we find the way of that revelation Matt.11:28-30. It all comes back to humility and being teachable. Jesus humbled Himself Phil.2:5-11. Thanks Ray for directing my attention to John 4 and 6. What did you want to share from these verses? Waiting, Kindness |
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7 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | Ray | 14294 | ||
Hi KINDNESS, Thank you for the vague compliment about being a possible English teacher. If I were, then I would have to talk to you about Jacob the *schemer, and the supplanter* and you would not thank me for that. :) I don't see any humbleness in Jacob; and I didn't find your quote of "in his flesh dwells no good thing" either, by the way. What I see in Jacob is a scared man who knew that if he didn't get a blessing from God he was in real big trouble. The passage in Genesis 32:28 tells us that Jacob strove with God and prevailed so I guess that would say that he won. He earned a name change and he was also blessed by God there. I go with the NKJ version as far as capitalization there by the way. However, if I won a wrestling match and came away with a limp while my competition went away unscathed, I would be slow in proclaiming myself a winner. I could hear people asking me, "What does the other guy look like?" In that sense, I would proclaim it a "tie". But again, as I've said, I don't see any humbleness in Jacob. Jacob said in Genesis 32:30, "I have seen (God) face to face, yet my life has been preserved." (Parenthesis mine for comparison). Earlier in Genesis 16:13, concerning Hagar, Sara's maid; "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, 'Thou art a God who sees', for she said, 'Have I even remained alive here after seeing (Him?)'" I believe that Jacob was very blessed just for living through his wrestling match with the Lord. Later, in Genesis 35:7, "And he built an altar there, and called the place El-bethel, because there God had revealed (Himself) to him, when he fled from his brother." Genesis 35:9 "Then God appeared to Jacob again when he came from Paddanaram and He blessed him. And God said to him, "Your name if Jacob; You (sic) shall no longer be called Jacob, But Israel shall be your name." Thus, He called him Israel. God also said to him, "I am God Almighty;..."" So in my mind we see the difference between this man and the Man whom he wrestled. We see the difference in this man who calls himself the "right hand" by means of his name for Rachel's son Ben-oni; and the God who says to him "I am God Almighty." Again, I don't see humbleness in Jacob. I want to talk to you about the other verses, but...Later, Ray |
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8 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | KINDNESS | 14323 | ||
Hi Ray, Well that was an ear full. You are right that it was a blessing for Jacob to come out of that "match" alive cosidering the other Person was his Creator. I think Jacob was humbled in the sence that by giving his name as Jacob (what do you say it means?) he was confessing that the blessing he got from Isaac was by deception and invalid. His mom was told that the younger would be chosen over Esau and receive the blessing Gen.25:19-28. But Rebekah and Jacob scheamed together to get it because they didn't understand God's ways or trust Him to intervene to carry out His promise. So in Gen.32 I agree jacob was scared and knew he was in trouble but he also knew unless God blessed him his father Isaac's blessing was of none effect. In nameing Jacob, Israel God was telling us and him that there was a heart change in Jacob, I believe. At that point in his life he became dependant upon God and trusted God would fulfill His promise in Gen.25:23 is the way i see it. Israel later became the name for the 12 tribes that made up the nation through which God would send the final promised One Jesus Christ the Messiah through whom all the promises of God are fulfilled. Do you agree with this? You may be right about Jacob not realizing that in his flesh dwelled no good thing since that is found in the NT after the Holy Spirit was given. But can any of us have an encounter with the living and true God without seeing the difference between what is Holy and not Holy? Without God in out lives we can not produce any good thing by God's standards. Correct? I appreciate your imput Ray. It gives me somthing to meditate on as I go through my day. Keep in touch. Kindness PS When you say Jacob "earned" a name change what do you mean? Do you believe in GRACE as in Eph. 2:8-10 or do you believe we earn blessing and salvation by our good works? |
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9 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | Ray | 14476 | ||
Hi KINDNESS, The marginal note for Jacob's name in my NASB Study Bible says "i.e. one who takes by the heel or supplants." So, supplanter would be an appropriate character trait for a person of that name. But when I say that he "earned" the name Israel for his wrestling match I don't necessarily mean that in a good sense. Jacob seems to be "forcing his way" into the blessings of God. The Genesis passage doesn't say who brought about the wrestling match, but I know that God will not strive or struggle with man forever. Hosea says that Judah is also unruly against God and Hosea 12:2 says, "The Lord also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds. In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. Yes, he wrestled with the *Angel and prevailed; *he wept and sought His favor." It goes on to give a message for us. Hosea 12:4b, "He found Him at Bethel, And there He spoke with us, Even the Lord, the God of hosts; The Lord is His name. Therefore, return to your God, Observe kindness and justice, And wait for your God continually." But I would like to go back to John 4:20 for I agree that it is through these people that the promised Messiah comes. This is the way that I interpret John 4:20; my personal copy for whatever its worth. " "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and You (people, the Jews) say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; I (and we) worship what I (and we) know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be (His) worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth." Consider that for a while and get back with me. Later, Ray |
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10 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | KINDNESS | 14480 | ||
Hi Ray, I did address that passage in one of my notes to you. It was nearly 30 years ago when I realized that God looks on the heart to find a true worshiper. Attitude seems to be a major part of worship. When I realized that location was not important but single mindedness and yeildedness was all important it changed my whole life. Rom.12:1,2 is the key to being in touch with the living God. We are channels through which the Lord can manifest Himself if we are yeilded and ready to serve Him and others by His power. John 17:17 seems to identify the "truth" for me. We must worship according to God's word for Him to receive it ,don't you think? That along withHeb. 4:12 and Phil.2:5 and following. True worship takes place whenever we are obedient to the word of God out of a heart of love and gratitude to God for His love,and mercy. Maybe Heb.13:15,16 is the key to worship. Ps 22:3 tells us that God inhabits the praises of His people. What do you make of that verse? Waiting to hear back from you. Later,Kindness | ||||||
11 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | Ray | 14548 | ||
Hi KINDNESS, You have expressed some good thoughts and I appreciate your personal growth and praise of God. I see where you are coming from as far as the location of worship is concerned for John 4:20. I wanted to get back to it for there was more of interest for this discussion of the vine or Vine. I think we have agreed that Jacob is not the true Vine even with his name change to Israel. He is the same Jacob, hopefully changed after his struggle with the Angel, just as we are part of the new "Israel" when we accept the promises of God in faith. But we're just part of the body of Christ; we are branches and Jesus is the true Vine. It is when we capitalize Vine (at least in our minds) that we can know the Deity of Christ and can compare it to John 4:23, "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth;..." I wanted to go back to John 4:20 to look at it differently than you did. I suggest that you look at the "you" or "ye" of the KJ and the "we worship what we know" of the NASB, and the "We worship what We know" of the NKJ and see if we can, as you have written, "focus on the one true living God and Father of all who are born of God." The King James does not have a "people" or "Jews" in its copy. It is in italics for the NASB and NKJ showing that it is not in the Greek. Thus, I would capitalize the You and the We worship what We know, or even make it "I worship what I know". Do you see where I am coming from as far as seeing the true Vine? Your Romans 12 reference is a good one for comparison with John 4:20. The "You people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship" would relate well with Romans 12:5, "so we, who are many,*are one body in Christ*, and individually members one with another." I would love to talk with you about John 17:17 and the "truth" and also John 8:30 concerning knowing the "Truth" . But I think that these other things should be on a different posting so that others can enter in easier. May I suggest that you compose another posting so that you can get more of the thoughts of others on the forum. Lets stay with Israel and the Vine here. Later, Ray |
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12 | Isn't Jesus Christ the True Isael to who | John 15:1 | KINDNESS | 14622 | ||
Hi Ray, I never meant to say that Jacob was the true Vine. What I was saying was that the promises regarding the Kingdom that were given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their seed were ultimately given to and fulfilled in the Seed spoken of in Gal.3:16. And when Jesus Christ came He was the true Israel to whom all is given and to whom all the promises of God are given and fulfulled. Therefore it is not necessary for the nation of Israel to be restored in order for God to fulfill all His promises to Israel. Jesus Christ is the true and final Israel. He is the true Vine and in Him all the promises are Yes and Amen. He is the David who will reign on the throne forever etc. Do you agree with this??? I will submit another Q. about John 4:20. Look for it. Later, Kindness |
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