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NASB | 2 Corinthians 13:5 ¶ Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | 2 Corinthians 13:5 ¶ Test and evaluate yourselves to see whether you are in the faith and living your lives as [committed] believers. Examine yourselves [not me]! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves [by an ongoing experience] that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test and are rejected as counterfeit? |
Subject: Difference backsliden or not saved? |
Bible Note: Hi Doc, You have said that you disagree with the statement "And so it is through the resurrection of Jesus that a work is done in the believer..." I would refer you to: 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated (from anagennaw - again begotten) us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," The Father has regenerated us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Your disagreement is not with me, but with Scripture. Regarding the definition of regeneration, I have defined regeneration as rebirth, the single act of the new creation. This is a specific act that takes place at a specific moment of time. I have offered this definition taken straight from the pages of Scripture, without including as a part of this definition it's causes, or results. Simply what it is. I'd like to mention that each of us are being very careful in how we define our terms. That is why I took my definition directly from Scripture. "In my own tradition we carefully define regeneration as "a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love God and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone." (Abstract of Principles, 1858" So then your traditions define regeneration as "a change of heart". This is not quite in agreement with the words the Bible uses for this. You have added that, in so many words, regeneration includes all of these other things. You have added much to the definition of "regeneration" that is not actually contained in the meanings of the words used. I look to the words used in the Bible and confine my definitions to the way that the writers used the words. Its a simple and naive way to read the Bible, I know, but I'd rather try to understand theology in the terms the Bible uses. I understand that you are saying that you have come to understand that there is much more involved than the simple terminology would seem to show, but I believe that you are backtracking a theology that is not found in the Scriptures and making the words and such fit the theology. So on this we disagree. But meanwhile, I don't think you ever answered if you think that this act of re-creation was performed in the OT saints. Likewise regarding the whether you think the Ezekiel and Jeremiah passages were not actually prophetic. I think I see my difficulty in understanding what Carroll wrote in the same way that you understand it. Carroll stated that rebirth was subject to a person's repentance, while quickening preceded repentance. If you are understanding his use of "quickening" to mean "rebirth", then he is apparently saying that rebirth both produces and is contingent upon repentance. This seems to put the cart both in front of and behind the horse. So then you think of regeneration as a process that includes multiple steps? "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from passion achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself very desirous and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. For God conspires with willing souls. But if they abandon their eagerness, the Spirit who is bestowed by God is also restrained. For to save the unwilling is the part of one exercising compulsion. But to save the willing is that of one showing grace." - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195 AD) "He seeks all and desires to save all. He wishes to make everyone the children of God." - Hippolytus (c. 200 AD) But rather than basing our arguments on the quotes and traditions of men, I find Biblical texts to be much more compelling. Love in Christ, Mark |