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NASB | John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that continues to bear fruit, He [repeatedly] prunes, so that it will bear more fruit [even richer and finer fruit]. |
Subject: John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? |
Bible Note: New Creature: Thanks for your reply! You wrote: "It appears that you think that the intended audience to which John 15 is addressed is the 11 remaining apostles, and not to all believers in general." Not exactly. In effect, we are "listening in," thanks to John, on something that Jesus was saying to the apostles (specifically) about "branches," both those that "abide in Him" and consequently "bear fruit" and those who do not abide in Him and are consequently cut off and used for kindling. While I think we need to examine more closely whom these branched refer to, he is not talking to the eleven specifically ABOUT the eleven. Sorry if I was unclear on that. Also, I agree with you regarding good, God-glorifying works being THE evidence of abiding in Jesus Christ. James 2 makes that clear. So, unless I am mistaken, you believe (like I do) that the works are the evidence, and not the cause, of an ongoing, abiding relationship with the Vine. I had asked, "Do you think we keep his commandments because we abide in Him or that we abide in Him by means of keeping His commandments?" In other words, which one causes the other? You answered that works should be the believer's desire. I am with you 100 percent on that, but that doesn't answer whether following the commandments causes us to abide or whether abiding causes us to obey His commandments. I also asked, 'How do we as human beings have control of whether any "fruit" that we bear will remain and flourish after it has left our control?' You responded that we should give up control. I guess I didn't state what I was asking clearly enough. When Jesus tells the eleven that they did not choose Him, but rather He chose them and appointed them to bear fruit, and that He appointed that their fruit will endure, I believe that He is referring specifically to the foundation of the New Testament church. He is APPOINTING that their fruit will endure after they are all dead, in other words. Since Jesus is speaking in the upper room to the eleven, how do they have any role in what will happen to their fruit once they are out of the picture? You also wrote: "But being free moral agents we have a choice to either surrender control to Him, or refuse to yeild control to Him." As Christians, that is true in a limited sense. God has a way of bringing us around to His way of thinking, however. Ask Jonah. :) 'In John 15:2 we see mentioned two types of branches. 1)those IN HIM that do not bear fruit 2) those in Him which do bear fruit. 'Both branches are said to be "in Him".' Correct. So now we come to the crucial question: what does Jesus mean by saying that both branches are "in Him." As you said, both types of branches are "in Him," but only one group is said to be "abiding in Him." We never are told that the branches "in Him" that were cut off were EVER "abiding in Him." He does not provide the image of them first producing good fruit and then ceasing to produce good fruit. In other words, here is the picture Jesus paints: (a)branches in Him and abiding in Him bear more fruit, get pruned to bear more fruit and (b) branches in Him but not abiding in Him get cut off and torched He twice in this passage apparently assures the eleven themselves that they are not in category (b). We see that in John 15:3 and in 15:16. Lastly, you quoted Matthew 7 a couple of times regarding what happens to the bad tree and also what happens to those who profess to be Christians but really are not Christians. Could the "branches" in category (b) above be referring to those professing Christians, who are baptized into the church but really are those whom Jesus NEVER knew (Matthew 7:23)? Looking forward to more discussion with you! --Joe! |