Prior Book | Prior Chapter | Prior Verse | Next Verse | Next Chapter | Next Book | Viewing NASB and Amplified 2015 | |
NASB | John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that continues to bear fruit, He [repeatedly] prunes, so that it will bear more fruit [even richer and finer fruit]. |
Subject: John 15:2, "cut off" or "lift up"? |
Bible Note: "So let me ask you if I may. How do you personally interpret these verses in John 15?" That is a good question, New Creature. Perhaps we can take a close look at this and get a good idea of where the other person is coming from. First of all, I agree that the meaning of getting cut off and gathered and being thrown into the fire is too similar to other references to the judgment of hell to be easily dismissed as "something else." In fact, I think that condemnation is exactly what Jesus is talking about. Therefore, I think the question of whether this passage supports the loss of salvation or not is to determine whom Jesus was talking about. Like the good teacher that He is, Jesus used many different ways of talking about these branches to be burned. Here are some things that Jesus said about them, and I would like your take on what they mean. First, Jesus says in John 15:2 that they are the ones who do not bear fruit. What do you think Jesus means by "bearing fruit," and do you think this means that we maintain our salvation by our works? I have met some opponents of "eternal security" that do, and some that don't. Jesus continues by saying that bearing fruit comes from abiding in Him, and in verses 6-7 is hwere we see the throwing away, the withering, and the gathering and burning. What do you think Jesus means when He says that the fruitful branches "abide in Him"? In verse 10, Jesus equates abiding in His love with keeping His commandments, and provides the intra-Trinitarian relationship between the Father and the Son as an example. Do you think we keep his commandments because we abide in Him or that we abide in Him by means of keeping His commandments? In other words, which one causes the other? And Jesus makes one last statement that is interesting, especially in light of those to whom He is speaking: "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." --John 15:16 These words are spoken to the eleven loyal disciples (Judas Iscariot had already departed in John 13:30). So these eleven had been appointed by Jesus Christ to do exactly what he had been telling them to do in the whole chapter. One might argue that Jesus was simply telling them what He wanted them to do, and that their decision to continue as His disciples was completely in their own hands. The only problem with that rendering is the phrase "and that your fruit would remain." How do we as human beings have control of whether any "fruit" that we bear will remain and flourish after it has left our control? But Jesus says that He has appointed these people for the purposes of BOTH occurring. Just one other point I would like to make, and then I am eager to hear what you have to say. Jesus commands His disciples to abide in Him and obey Him, and instructs them directly that apart from Him they can do nothing. He uses direct address (second person) to tell them all this. However, when he is speaking of the branches thrown into the fire, He only uses the third person ("he" and "the branches"). He never directly tells them in this passage, "If YOU do not abide in me, it is the fire for YOU." That by itself proves nothing, but it is interesting that this threat of judgment is never directed squarely at them. So what do you think? --Joe! |