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NASB | Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Mark 16:16 "He who has believed [in Me] and has been baptized will be saved [from the penalty of God's wrath and judgment]; but he who has not believed will be condemned. |
Subject: believeth and is baptized |
Bible Note: Dear lightedsteps, You wrote, "I think your assessment of my meaning to be found within Rom., and Col. would be fair, I do feel as though they are representative of the doing something in the natural, which then in turn is capable of causing a supernatural result." (sic) Thank you, again, for clarifying. By way of preamble, for anyone who is interested, let me explain: The spectrum of belief amongst Christians, relative to the ordinances of the church, ranges from one of these opposite points to the other. (Note that in our current context, we are primarily discussing the ordinance of baptism. Also, when I say "ordinance," I am consciously using a word for which you would use "sacrament.") 1. The ordinance is solely a picture of spiritual things, and is done only for symbolic purposes. This is a position that is held, for example, by Anabaptists. 2. The ordinance is a means of grace, whereby some sort of spiritual efficacy is achieved, and specifically performed in order to elicit that end. This is a position that is held, for example, by the Roman Church. All Christians deem that baptism is an ordinance commanded by our Lord (Matthew 28:19), therefore its practice is seen as something that is done in obedience to Him, but which cannot be done in any other manner than a corporate one. Furthermore, none that hold to the first position would say that such obedience does not bring an associated blessing; just as none of those holding the second position would say that there is no symbolism in practice. It becomes even more clear, as all Christendom agrees as to the necessity of church discipline; i.e., the withholding of these ordinances from those who are apostate, for the ultimate purpose of restoration. In theology the phrase "means of grace" is used. A means is an agency through which certain definite ends are accomplished. For example, as John Piper once pointed out, God has ordained the means of breathing in order to sustain life. "So the command to breathe is the command to fall in with the purposes and patterns of God to give and sustain life." (More about this in a subsequent post if you don't mind my continuing to pontificate.) There is an added dimension here concerning causality. I am glad that you added the following qualification: "This is not saying, our doing causes the result, it is all Gods doing. Our place is to follow those things He has said to do, the result then will follow the actions He has said they would follow." To my way of thinking, this makes a world of difference! Without your qualification, I still see it as simply magic. Think about it: When people who practice magic do their stuff, they are, of course, only doing things in the realm of nature; i.e, sprinkling powders, chanting, dancing, etc. etc. However, they are hoping to elicit supernatural benefit. If we baptize people -- whatever the mode -- in an effort to achieve God's blessing, then it is virtually the same thing. Like my legal friends say, "a distinction without a difference." I will talk in a followup post on my particular perspective on baptism. However, I am much more comfortable with your qualified statement, although for the sake of precision I will say it differently. Nonetheless, I have a Catechism of the Catholic Church, and I do see them using causal expressions that are at variance with your qualification (cf part 2, section 2, chapter 1, article 7). Regardless, I've been writing all afternoon -- and that after a full day of work. I will continue tomorrow, Deo volente. Thank you for discussion. In Him, Doc |