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NASB | 2 Samuel 12:11 "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | 2 Samuel 12:11 "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will stir up evil against you from your own household; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. |
Subject: Does this mean God is the author of sin? |
Bible Note: Hello Joe, You're right. I haven't read a response here that really seems to answer my question. And, I'm afraid, I must include yours in that statement. You come close to *asking* my question when you wrote: "Q: So how can God decree sin (along with all other things) without being the author of it?" Depending on just what you mean by your use of the word "decree," it maybe that you are asking here the same question as I am. (I refer you back to our discussion under Gal. 2:17 and again ask that we get some of these words we are using well defined so that we can clearly understand each other.) But, it seems to me, that your answers to this question miss the mark. The first part of your answer to this question was: "...by bringing sinful people into EXISTENCE..." I am not sure how this answers the question. Yes, God brings sinful people into the world (and/or allows sinful people to be brought into the world). As I understand it, He loves each of them, cares for each of them, and does not tempt any of them or cause any of them to sin. And yet, it would seem that this passage is saying something very different. It says that *God* caused this sin. What I want to know is if this is a figure of speech of some sort, or a misunderstanding based on cultural difference, or if it really means exactly what it says and therefore I misunderstand something about God! The second part of your answer to this question was: "...by providing the ABILITY and OPPORTUNITY to sin." Again, I am not sure how this answers the question. As I said in our discussions on Gal. 2:17, real choice must include both the real ability to choose and the real opportunity to choose. It seems to me that, if this is correct, then we can only be held responsible (guilty) to the degree that we had real choice. My point in that discussion (Gal. 2:17) was to ask, "how can God hold us accountable for things in which we have no real choice?" In other words, if God has predestined every detail of history, including every sin, what *real* choice does anyone have? It was at that point, if my memory serves me correctly, that you referred me to this passage that we are now discussing seemingly as a proof (or evidence) that God really does predetermine (decree, predestine) even the sins that we commit. But my question (from Gal. 2:17) still stands: how can God do that and not be the author of sin? That seems to be a blatent contradiction. In the passage we are discussing here, how can we say that God is not the cause (author) of this sin? The third part of your answer to this question was: "...by limiting the EXTENT of the expression of the sinful act." Again, as I think I said in our discussion attached to Gal. 2:17, I have no problem with the idea of limited freedom. But there is a vast difference between limited freedom and absolute predestination wherein there is no freedom - and therefore there can be no responsibility. But in particular reference to the passage that we discussing at the moment, it gives no indication of God simply limiting the available choices. It quite specifically says that God Himself *would do* this thing. I am finding that to be a very uncomfortable thing. You began your message by writing: "Your post does bring me to something I had wanted to fit in earlier: whether using the words "author," "cause," and "source" synonymously is correct here." Are they not essentially synonomous? I do not see in the remainder of your message an explaination of why they are not. Then, immediately following that statement, you wrote: "Here is my understanding: Q: Where does sin originate? A: The sinful hearts of human beings." I do believe that sin originates in the hearts and minds of God's created beings (angels and humans), and that we are sinful by nature. We sin because we are sinners, not the other way around. But the strongly Calvanistic point of view, if I understand it at all, says more than that. It says that sin originates from God before the foundation of the world in that God decreed (predetermined, predestined) every detail of history! Am I mistaken in this? Anyway, that question more properly belongs back in our discussion on Gal. 2:17. The question I would like answered here (2Sa. 12:11-12) is "how can God say and/or do this without it compromising His holiness?" If it is wrong for people to perform these actions, then must it not also be wrong for God to *cause* them to do this? Have a very good day. As always, I am looking forward to your reply. Bob |