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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 81944 | ||
Hank, which article did you read? I would like to read it myself. Thanks |
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42 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 81962 | ||
"You have been shown time and time again direct quotes from these false teachers that you refuse to believe." No Ed, scripturally the teachings have not been clearly addressed. If you will look back over the various threads where the subject of various teaching of WOF have come up you should recognize that no clear teaching was done. There was a lot of 'quotes' commented upon and some books and referrels to biased web sites. I say biased because there are webs sites that are 'pro' and web sites that are 'con' so we could all do that. There are also books 'pro' and con'. "As I stated before, these quotes are statements taken out of context to form a conclusion contrary to the teaching actually being taught. And as you also know, we have had this same conversation before and left with the same conclusions..(both of us) because of this. "I was showing a video of one of these teachers to some other people. When it was all over I asked it they accepted his final conclusion. They had. I stated it was based on error but I then asked them what was wrong with the teaching. No one had a problem. I asked what if the teacher had said this or that would that be a problem? They all agreed it would, but added that this teacher didn't say that." My first question would be...Who is the teacher? Second...send me a copy of the tape if it is entire...then you and I can meet and talk. God bless |
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43 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82036 | ||
winstonchurchill. If I may take a little time here..as you have noticed something that needs to be addressed... I have been in this discussion several times and the debate is never 'accurate'. Let me give some examples. Hank said: "Jesus came to earth as a man for one reason: to recapture the authority that Satan had stolen through Adam's disobedience in the garden." (And all this time I've been believing what the Bible says about the sovereignty of God! And that Jesus came to the earth as the Savior of those who believe in Him.) Here is the first statement in the teaching paper Hank is quoting from...Brother Copeland states:"As new creations we have been put in a position of power and authority-a position delegated to us by God through Jesus Christ. Along with that authority come certain responsibilities. I want to examine God's Word concerning that position and the authority we have in Him. Notice that Hank's deragatory statement regarding the sovereignty of God implying KC(to save time and speed I will use KC)does not believe in the sovereignty of God. He did not post this very first statement of the teaching which clearly does state that God is sovereign. 1. GOD delegated authority THROUGH Jesus Christ. Delegate means a person designated to act for or represent another or others. To commit(powers or functions) to another as agent.(Webster) 2. He clearly states the authority carries responsibility. Now to place the statement quoted where Hank implies KC does not believe Jesus Christ came to be our saviour I would first like to place the statement in context(a matter I believe ALL on the forum will agree with-context is critical to accurate understanding) KC said:"Jesus succeeded in securing all power by going to the cross, dying a horrible death, suffering the penalty of sin, and defeating Satan in the pit of hell. He came to earth as a man for one reason: to re-capture the authority that Satan had stolen through Adam's disobedience in the garden. Jesus was called the last Adam(1 Cor. 15:45) After securing that power and authority, He freely gave it over into the hands of those who would believe on Him-you and me. It is not enough for us to simply accept Jesus' work on Calvary. We are held responsible for much more. Jesus'words in the 16th chapter of Mark were not intended for the early church alone. His words are just as vital and real today as when they were first spoken." The key statement in these two paragraphs is "It is not enough for us to simply accept Jesus' work on Calvary. We are held responsible for much more." KC is not understating the blood sacrifice for our sins...He is stating that the GOSPEL does not stop at the cross, where many believers do tend to stop. He is saying Jesus died for our total liberty, to break the power of darkness in our lives and that we are to walk in that liberty as witnesses to other! He goes on to remind readers of Jesus' final words spoken to the disciples before His ascension in Mark 16...GO YE INTO ALL THE WORLD AND PREACH THE GOSPEL.... The Gospel goes far beyond simply saving us from eeternal damnation in hell...Throughout the New Covenant we are reminded that the authority of the power of darkness has been broken in our lives. He who had the power of death has been defeated. Hank said: 2] "It is not enough for us simply to accept Jesus work at Calvary." (Kenny, please tell us why Christ's death is insufficient). winston, Do you hear 'insufficient'? I hear MORE THAN ENOUGH! Hank SAID: [3] As a believer, you have accepted the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary. Therefore, you are a part of His body and are seated with Him in that heavenly place, equipped with the same power, the same authority that He has." (Wow! Thanks, Kenny, for letting me know that I'm now equal in power and authority to God. I bet I could leap over tall buildings in a single bound, if I half tried. Wow!) In context:"In the first chapter of Ephesians, Paul prayed for the body of believersin Ephesus. One part of that prayer was that they know the 'exceeding greatness of His power to those who believe (Ephe.1:19). that exceeding great power is the same power that God used to raise Jesus from the dead and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenlies. Ephesians 1:21 tells us that Jesus is seated far above 'all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named'. The work that God did in Jesus was supreme. He raised Jesus from the dead and set Him far above all authority-not in this world, but also in the heavenly world. Then verse 22 says that God has put ALL things under His feet and made Him head over the church which is His body.Where are the feet? As believers, we are part of His body and we are seated with Him in the highly exalted place of authority. Praise God!" winston, I am out of space and time..read Ephesians 2 and I will pick up here later. God bless |
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44 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82047 | ||
I will have to check the network listing,I only know channels by their local listing #. I will let you know. Gloria is teaching this week. I know you would not 'doctor' a tape. The problem I was illuding to would be more the matter of not listening to a teaching in it's entirety and only picking and choosing certain statements that rub the 'orthodox theology' language the wrong way. He does that on purpose, as you probably know, in order to burst our doctrinally ingrained thinking bubbles. Sort of 'shock treatment'. When these statements are extracted from the context, it is easy to miss the message. I know you disagree here, and I am only making these comments for communicating my perspective, not for debate. God bless |
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45 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82068 | ||
"would take a verse out of context, a verse whose only function was to add shock value, and quote it to smear another person" That is NOT what I said.....I said "The problem I was illuding to would be more the matter of not listening to a teaching in it's entirety and only picking and choosing certain statements that rub the 'orthodox theology' language the wrong way." This disappoints me a lot Ed. Do you see anywhere in this statement where I said SCRIPTURE or VERSE? No, I said 'statements'....statements that are 'theological terms'doctrinal conclusions' NOT SCRIPTURE. "If your allegation was true don't you think the one who used the quote would have his socks sued off? If nothing less do you not think the speaker which already has a public forum would address the issue and set the record straight if it weren’t true?" No, Brother Copeland has made it clear that his teaching is readily available for anyone to read, study and compare. He believes it is the Holy Spirit's ministry to reveal truth to open hearts. No, he would never sue, especially not another brother. This, too, is a a credit to his ministry. "Graceful I’m afraid you have refuse to be convinced and that is a very dangerous position to be in. Unless you want to see the truth you can never be shown it." I feel the same way about you....But I must make one small comment....SCRIPTURALLY noone has made a viable argument. How much of this thread was scriptural discussion and how much was it 'theological commentaries' and opinions? Read this thread from beginning to end...Especially winstonchurchill's post. He stated it well. Noone who is an objective thinker and who relys on the Holy Spirit for truth would be convinced by such a debate. God bless |
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46 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82086 | ||
Thank you for your apology and your input...I will use your points for study questions. God bless |
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47 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82098 | ||
"No where in the Bible does it say we are the body of Christ except in an allegory of the church. What Jesus was saying when we accept Him as Lord and Savior we unite with other believers making up the church with Jesus as the head. There is no basis either implied or assumed to say we are Jesus’ physical body and since all authority has been given Him we also being his body have that authority. You took a true statement, “we are the body of Christ with Jesus being the head” which was made in reference to the church.” And the statement, all authority has been given to Jesus”, which it was. Ignored the allegory and meaning and came up with, “since we are the body of Christ and He has all authority we too have that authority” That is simply a false statement." An allegory is a pictoral device or symbol illustrating an idea.... The illustrated idea of us as Jesus body would be that we are an extention of His headship, His Lordship...Are you the head of your household? Isn't that allegoric? So you don't see the term head/body as saying we are the extension of the head? And since these verses are speaking regarding authority I do not see this is a stretch at all. "To say what you did elevate man to the level as Jesus, and nothing could be further from the truth." This statement illuminates the fear that restrains many in the body from stepping up to the plate and fulfilling their call. In Jesus we have been given all things that pertain to life and Godliness. GIVEN being the predominate word. Jesus authority in and through us...not our authority...His authority..through us if we believe. He said You go in My name.....No this does not elevate us to Jesus level in the sense that we become Him. We are the 'body' He is the 'head'. The head is the authority, we are the body to which the authority has been delegated. One could also use the term 'empowered'. Empowered to cast out the devil...empowered to lay hands on the sick.. God bless |
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48 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82103 | ||
Excellent post Earnest... God bless |
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49 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82107 | ||
Hello winstonchurchill... I know it was lengthy but when exerps are extracted and commented on in such a way, it takes time and space to counter properly. The post is not really for our Calvinist brothers. Without the Holy Spirit revealing truth to our spirit, we will not hear. The post is for seekers of the truth who may be indimidated into being fearul of teaching that conflicts with 'orthodox theology'. It is for passers by to hear both sides, compare scripture and pray for revelation from the Holy Spirit. If we only hear one side, we believe that is the only side. Somewhere in Proverbs Solomon says that one side seems right until you hear the other side... And as the old saying goes, the truth is somewhere in the middle. On prosperity, I see God's provision for furthurance of the gospel, feeding the homeless and hungry. If God wants to give someone a jet to fly to Africa and preach...so be it...Why should that bother me? I should be GLAD! But if my call is to feed the homeless downtown, I need money and a way to get there and the liberty to do so. Debt and poverty are bondage. It is a matter of the call and the need, mine and theirs. Mine is met as I am obedient to theirs. Healing is a different matter. While sickness and poverty can be seen as part of the curse, Jesus addressed sickness much more than poverty. Isaiah 53...healing is stated along with salvation and healing here means to be made whole..spirit, soul, body. Purhaps we can talk at a later time on this. It would be nice to converse with someone who is not so..shall we say... negative. I will finish the post on the Authority of the Believer tomorrow. God bless. |
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50 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82113 | ||
Christ provided all believers, as a gift,through His blood, His righteousness, His justification for the purpose of His work. God the Father sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in me to empower for service..If you interpret that as equal with Christ you have a problem. Without Him I would be nothing, with Him I am His child and can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. "Do you really think you can walk into a grave yard and command someone buried there to arise?" Do YOU believe Mark 16? Or do you believe it's presence in scripture is an error? God bless |
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51 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82157 | ||
AUTHORITY OF BELIEVER PART 2 Hank said: [4] "YOU are the one in authority. YOU put off the old man. YOU put on the new man." (OK, with such a YOU-centered theology as this, Kenny, I don't suppose I have any more need of God, do I?) ...... "One of the most vital areas of the believer's authority is his power to successfully stand against Satan. Ephesians 4:27 says, Neither give place to the devil. In the sixth chapter of Ephesians, the Apostle Paul describes the armor that we as believers are to wear in combat against Satan. He explains each piece of that armor. It is the armor of God. But not once does he say that God will put the armor on you or that God will fight the devil for you. YOU is the understood subject of these verses. He says, "YOU be strong in the Lord. YOU put on the whole armor of God that YOU will be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. YOU take the whole armor of God that YOU may be able to withstand in the evil day; and having done all, YOU stand." God has given you the power and the authority to stand against Satan and his destructive works. He has provided the armor, but it is your responsibility as a believer to put on that armor and stand against the devil. James 4:7 says, YOU resist the devil, and he will flee from YOU. The armor and the weapons are at your disposal. God is there with you to back His Word; but all is worthless unless you take your position of authority and assume the responsibility to use what He has provided. You have the power and the authority to take the Word of God, the name of Jesus, and the power of the Holy Spirit and run Satan out of your affairs. Don't pray and ask God to fight Satan for you. You are the one in authority. Take your responsibility and speak directly to Satan yourself and stand your ground firmly. He will flee!" Clearly nowhere is it even implied that we do not need God, much less actually stated.. KC clearly states that it is God's armour we wear! It is under His authority that we are able to do this. As stated in the opening statement...His authority delegated. Unfortunately, we read these verses and do not recognize the 'understood you' which is OUR required response, our military orders so to speak....YOU GO IN MY NAME.... What does it mean to 'Go in My name"? It means just that; You go under the umbrela of my authority and you do the work I am sending you to do. Now for the sake of the critics, I wil add here that in light of 1 Corinthians chapters 11-14 we are expected to find our place in that Body under the Head of Christ. If you read on through the teaching you will find that KC does not ever say that any one person has total power, which I believe is what the critics believe. Jesus has total power. We have access to it as the Body. If each part is doing it's part empowered by the Head, evangelizing the world would be a much simpler task, and people of the world would be seeing the glory of God revealed through the church. God's glory----His church. I will address this in my next post. God bless |
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52 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82169 | ||
In reference to your statement concerning Mark 16: You said.. "I would not hold that its' command is still binding and therefore relevant today." I do believe it is relevant and binding today. You said: "The problem with resurecting the dead (or resuscitations) is that we find few examples in scripture. Again, it's not normative! In the OT we have 1 Kings 17:17-23, 2 Kings 4:32-37 and 13:21. In the NT we have Jesus Ministry of Matt. 9:24-25, Luke 7:12-15, John 11:43, and the apostles in Acts 9:36-41, 20:9-12. A total of 8 recorded instances. I would expect it to be in every book of the Bible ( and at that several times) for us to develop a doctrine. Would you not agree?" Mark 16:16-18 makes no mention of raising the dead. "(21) He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: (22) in My name they will cast out demons, they will (23) speak with new tongues; 18 they will (24) pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (25) lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." I did not bring up the subject of raising the dead, nor did I at any time in any of my post state or even imply that raising the dead should or could be commonplace. Ed asked that question to create controversy. Read MY posts. God bless |
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53 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82192 | ||
Here on the Forum some of the disciples of Copeland apparently have been well trained by their WOF master. As Copeland is often attempting to explain away what the Bible actually says and means, so his disciples here are attempting to explain away what Copeland actually said, quoted here in HIS OWN WORDS. I have been posting his exact words in reference to your post chalenging his statements on Authority of the Believer along with all the scripture (in context). What really worries me here is that none of you can actually disagree with the interpretation of scripture when you see them side by side. I see a hardness of heart that truly troubles me. God bless |
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54 | What about so-called revelation knowledg | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82201 | ||
Ed, I apologize if this statement was a misjudgement of your motives. As I do not recall saying anything about raising the dead, I can't see any other reason for you to make such a statement. "Your the one that said your Christ's equal." No Ed...I did not say that. This is your interpretation of what I said...I did not say I AM THE HEAD. I am part of the body..and according to Mark 16 have been empowered for service. "I simply asked that since you had Jesus' authority if you could walk in the grave yard and command a body to rise. You went off the Mark 16 trail. Read your posts!!!!!" Where in my posts did I talk about raising the dead? If you will direct me to a post where I said anything about raising the dead, I would appreciate it. Scripture does not address 'raising the dead' except in extraordinary cases and the Holy Spirit would direct that if He wanted to. God bless |
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55 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82235 | ||
"There is similarily a certain "hardness of heart" in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles against false teachers. Is it a sacrilege to venture even to ask whether contemporary false teachers and their flock should not be troubled by this scriptural "hardness of heart" that soundly condemns false doctrines, along with those who promulgate them. and also with those who support, believe, and are deceived by them?" Assuming that you are correct, this would be true. My point, again not really addressed, was the fact that in light of scripture and interpretation, the posts I have made with quotes are accurate interpretations and correct the mis statements and accusations of Hank's post. Yet you refuse to acknowledge when the interpretations are correct. That was the point of my post..the hardness of heart is an observation based this statement. God bless |
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56 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82240 | ||
Hi Tim "Heb. 11:3 does not say 'By faith God spoke the worlds into existence'." I stand corrected "The words 'assurance' (# 5287) and 'deed' (# 1650) are both used in Greek in contexts dealing with contracts." I stand by my post at this point. I do not have time to address the rest...but would simply point out that all the 'faith hall of fame did indeed see miracles manifest in their lives through faith...But not all such as Abraham. He received wealth, the covenant, His son.... Noah built the ark by faith in God's words of promise and was saved.... These scriptures do not disprove faith produces the reality of the promise, which truly is the foundation of WOF teaching. This is why I just can't get what this debate is really about.... I have to go for today God bless |
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57 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82266 | ||
"Forum Gadfly who buzzes about with stinging challenges to the Word of Faith disciples and other assorted proponents of various other unscriptural musings? --Hank" Hi Hank- the 'Forum Gadfly' You would be the one. Although I must say, the two of sound an awful lot alike! Did you, by chance, read my posts to winstonchurchill? Since he seemed to be actually asking a question, I directed my posts to him disproving (not in you opinion I am sure) your interpretations. God bless |
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58 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82376 | ||
Hi Tim... The early morning is my free time so I came downstairs to discuss this with you this morning. However, I had not written down the ID# and sometime yesterday the thread was restricted so I had difficulty finding your post. I wll try to get a little in this morning, but it may be tomorrow before I can get indepth. You said: "So, the first question I would ask you to address is simply this: If faith is a power that produces a reality, why does Heb. 11:13 say that they did not receive?" I re read Hebres 11 and 12 yesterday on my commute home and a couple of things were highlighted in my thinking. 1. They did receive from their faith... a. Enoch was translated b. Noah was saved and his household He condemned the world and became heir of righteousness. c. Sarah recieved strength to conceive seed and Abraham was 'dead' yet he had the son of promise. (I would consider that a creative miracle) Now verse 13 can't be saying they did not 'receive' but rather that there is something specific they all did not receive while alive... verse 14-19 tells us what that promise was.They 'sought a country...a better country that is heavenly: this is why God is not ashamed to be called their God and has prepared for them a city. Verse 17 says that "by faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Issac: and he had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, (18) Of whom it was said, That in Issac shall thy seed be called: (19)Accounting that God was able to raise him up from the dead; from whence also he had received him in a figure. Verse 33..subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises... Verse 35..Women received their dead raised to life again Faith produces God's reality even after physical death. Verse 40 is the key...God having provided some better thing for, that they without us should not be made perfect(complete). The saints of old did receive many great miracles through faith in God's Words. To me, these scriptures do not state in any way that faith does not produce the reality God desires, but rather is necessary to produce His reality. Faith combined with God's promises produces God's will in the earth. Again substance according to Strong's: that which has foundation, is firm that which has actual existence a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution confidence, firm trust, assurance In light of this I reaffirm what Strong's says of this word 'substance'. According to Strong's Hebrews 11:1 the Greek word is translated substance and means 'nature'. And above it is broken out as 'a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing ' Faith is the substantial quality, naure of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen... Faith produces reality...faith in God's promises produces God's desires in the earth. Got to go, God bless |
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59 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82466 | ||
Thank you, How about setting up a profile so we can put a 'face' to your name. God bless |
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60 | How to use scripture, prove them wrong? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82483 | ||
Thank you, Sometimes I have to go rest 'under the tree'. God bless |
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